When is the insanity going to end? There has to be a real estate market crash, right? (Boston: home, school districts)

[Shizim]

Originally Posted by mdovell

The district I'm referring to is Silverlake relative the town of Pembroke. The only way to get actual real vocational training is to attend Silver Lake. Pembroke High School might attempt to have a vocational program but it's not really the same thing. Tuition follows the student. To be frank I think every student should be able to be reached. If it takes a private school or charter school or a magnet school or a religious school or a public school so be it.

Having worked with some of the most affluent school districts in the state and some of the most poorest school districts in the state I can tell you it really does come down to Parenting. Giving more money is not specifically help. You have to have a real plan to educate students in the show wood resources that takes. In Massachusetts they've had the mcast for quite some time and that does help because that can show you that at least on that standard that kids from one District can be equal to another District. It may burn Connecticut they got rid of stated eyes testing so no one really knows what the quality is of one District versus another. Teachers in Massachusetts have to have a license under with call the mtel, which was made by the state. In New York and in Connecticut they have the Praxis which is it a private company that makes it.

I'm not exactly a fan of religious schools because I had an interview with One long ago and they had hardly any standards at all for educators. Their compensation was extremely low even lower than working in retail so I don't see what would really attract somebody to that other than having a job where they effectively do nothing. Charter Schools can be interesting but to be honest with you I'm not for the expansion of charter schools because that would simply have Charter Schools competing with each other even more so in since they cannot obtain msba funding you'll literally see kids in some ramshackle of a school building attempting to get education. I know of charter schools that were in some rather bad buildings portable classrooms at the very least. In western Mass Affair amount of charter schools end up inheriting buildings from churches which can be fine in the short-term but in the long-term they aren't making that much for New School Church buildings So eventually they're going to have to find something on their own.

As for the 300 that's just school choice I didn't even begin to talk about the amount that Charter and private schools take out of that District as well. I got them for the freedom of choice but I think there has to be some reasonable expectation in terms of competition. A public school district should not assume that they are the default they have to be a bit flexible to try to have methods and means changed in order to get more students in.

i think you are giving school choice way more importance and prominence in MA than it deserves. The vast majority of kids go to their town schools. period. Yes some go to private school and an even smaller amount go to regionalized Vocs (more should go to be honest but thats a different convo) but thats not the norm. I school choice were so prevalent or an option, why aren't kids opting to go to school in Andover vs Lawrence or Lynnfield vs Lynn?

I think for parents buying, town school "quality" and "reputation" are top of the list.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by Shizim

i think you are giving school choice way more importance and prominence in MA than it deserves. The vast majority of kids go to their town schools. period. Yes some go to private school and an even smaller amount go to regionalized Vocs (more should go to be honest but thats a different convo) but thats not the norm. I school choice were so prevalent or an option, why aren't kids opting to go to school in Andover vs Lawrence or Lynnfield vs Lynn?

I think for parents buying, town school "quality" and "reputation" are top of the list.

The guy lived in Springfield with those failed school systems. Of course he's going to come down in favor of school choice. The Pembroke demographics aren't exactly conductive to having a top school system. It doesn't in any way resemble the blue chip white collar professional towns with the gold plated school systems.


If I have kids in a public school system, I'm buying in the best town I can afford and then erecting the biggest wall I possibly can to protect my school system. That's hardly unique to Massachusetts.



On your "thats a different convo".... The state run vocational-technical schools I know turn away half the applicants. They're whiter and more middle class than the city high schools in their region. That's critical infrastructure where state spending should be doubled. It's how you break the cycle of generational poverty in the failed cities.

[mdovell]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

The guy lived in Springfield with those failed school systems. Of course he's going to come down in favor of school choice. The Pembroke demographics aren't exactly conductive to having a top school system. It doesn't in any way resemble the blue chip white collar professional towns with the gold plated school systems.


If I have kids in a public school system, I'm buying in the best town I can afford and then erecting the biggest wall I possibly can to protect my school system. That's hardly unique to Massachusetts.



On your "thats a different convo".... The state run vocational-technical schools I know turn away half the applicants. They're whiter and more middle class than the city high schools in their region. That's critical infrastructure where state spending should be doubled. It's how you break the cycle of generational poverty in the failed cities.

Lived with those failed school systems? Uh there's a fair amount of private and charter schools in the area as well.

I can agree on supporting vocational education. The Commonwealth has not increased the amount of vocational schools in quite some time. What defines as a vocation can differ quite a bit. Minuteman high school for example has eight communities within it but some try to argue against the cliff effect. Vocational schools tend to cost more per student but that should not deter the advancement of them. It's just a cost of materials that is largely up front.

Pembroke demographics aren't bad so I don't know what you are referring to given that you said earlier that you blocked me. So why respond to something you blocked unless it's triggering you to something else.

This obession with schools runs hollow because frankly this seems to be the mindset.

1) You need to buy a house in a good community to get into a good school
2) You need a good school in order to get a kid into a good college
3) You need a kid to go to a good college to get a good job
4) You need a good job to make more money.

Yeah about that...

Let's say I give some graduate from the 128 belt half a million to go where ever they wanted. Since many of these are feeder schools for the Ivy's I don't think it's that far off to say that someone from lexington is going to harvard or newton to say Yale. Take your pick.

So that half a million pays for room and board for undergraduate and graduate over the next six years. Throw in some internships and some overseas trips. Ok half a million again.

So they graduate six years later and say work at Amazon or Alphabet making say...150K to start.

So the payoff for the 500K is then about 3.5 years. Ok so that's 9.5 years of using that half a million.

Or..

They could just invest that half a million in the stock. In 10 years Amazon has gone up 15x. In 10 years google has gone up 6x. then you take a look a the taxes. Capital would gain much more vs labor. You would have about 50x as much with investing in amazon. At 150K with income taxes the rate would bring you down with mass included down to about 105K. 7.5 million would be made with amazon and 2.5 million for the capital gains taxes.

We can talk about enlightenment all we want but generally people go to higher education for better compensation. The private sector cares not for education and academics but for how much an employee can make (generate profit) or save (avoid litigation and liabilities).

If you don't like school choice that's fine. But I rather people not be separated off in some sort of snobbish like bro culture devoid of any meaning value or purpose. Having some existential crisis in some catatonic state is not a way to live. If you honestly think that sheltering yourself and others away from demographics is a better way to live I don't know what to tell you. I don't judge people on the basis of what they are, especially if they aren't bothering me. Maybe you might be different but frankly if someone doesn't bother me I don't bother or think poorly on them. Since it is the state that sets the graduation requirements and the teacher license requirements it makes sense that they would allow for school choice.

Ask yourself this. Why would we see an increase in districts allowing school choice? here's what the Pioneer Institute has to say and this goes into detail.
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED589538.pdf
For receiving districts
In 1992 it was less than 50
In 1998 it was at 100
In 2006 it was at 150
In 2017 it was at 185

For sending it was about 125 in 1992 and now it's over 300. So if we make the argument that not all districts send students that is correct but the overwhelming vast majority do. If parents want a specific program in education and that district doesn't offer it but another does then why not have school choice? You can't ignore the economy of scale. Just as we have regional districts. If we abolished regional districts and told each town to have their own they'd be no way they could afford it.

There's 351 towns in Mass and some districts are regional. If school choice is bad why would Northampton take in hundreds of out of district students? Well given that the population hasn't grown in decades that might be why. Same with West Bridgewater.

As a state public school enrollment has dropped significantly, following national trends due to the birthrate. The cost of operating school programs can increase as there are less students so all districts are fighting over retaining students and trying to get new ones in. I know people in public schools that hate charters with a passion. I know some that love religious schools. It's one thing to put up a fence but it's another for a wall.

[id77]

Originally Posted by mdovell

Lived with those failed school systems? Uh there's a fair amount of private and charter schools in the area as well.

I can agree on supporting vocational education. The Commonwealth has not increased the amount of vocational schools in quite some time. What defines as a vocation can differ quite a bit. Minuteman high school for example has eight communities within it but some try to argue against the cliff effect. Vocational schools tend to cost more per student but that should not deter the advancement of them. It's just a cost of materials that is largely up front.

Pembroke demographics aren't bad so I don't know what you are referring to given that you said earlier that you blocked me. So why respond to something you blocked unless it's triggering you to something else.

This obession with schools runs hollow because frankly this seems to be the mindset.

1) You need to buy a house in a good community to get into a good school
2) You need a good school in order to get a kid into a good college
3) You need a kid to go to a good college to get a good job
4) You need a good job to make more money.

Yeah about that...

Let's say I give some graduate from the 128 belt half a million to go where ever they wanted. Since many of these are feeder schools for the Ivy's I don't think it's that far off to say that someone from lexington is going to harvard or newton to say Yale. Take your pick.

So that half a million pays for room and board for undergraduate and graduate over the next six years. Throw in some internships and some overseas trips. Ok half a million again.

So they graduate six years later and say work at Amazon or Alphabet making say...150K to start.

So the payoff for the 500K is then about 3.5 years. Ok so that's 9.5 years of using that half a million.

Or..

They could just invest that half a million in the stock. In 10 years Amazon has gone up 15x. In 10 years google has gone up 6x. then you take a look a the taxes. Capital would gain much more vs labor. You would have about 50x as much with investing in amazon. At 150K with income taxes the rate would bring you down with mass included down to about 105K. 7.5 million would be made with amazon and 2.5 million for the capital gains taxes.

We can talk about enlightenment all we want but generally people go to higher education for better compensation. The private sector cares not for education and academics but for how much an employee can make (generate profit) or save (avoid litigation and liabilities).

If you don't like school choice that's fine. But I rather people not be separated off in some sort of snobbish like bro culture devoid of any meaning value or purpose. Having some existential crisis in some catatonic state is not a way to live. If you honestly think that sheltering yourself and others away from demographics is a better way to live I don't know what to tell you. I don't judge people on the basis of what they are, especially if they aren't bothering me. Maybe you might be different but frankly if someone doesn't bother me I don't bother or think poorly on them. Since it is the state that sets the graduation requirements and the teacher license requirements it makes sense that they would allow for school choice.

Ask yourself this. Why would we see an increase in districts allowing school choice? here's what the Pioneer Institute has to say and this goes into detail.
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED589538.pdf
For receiving districts
In 1992 it was less than 50
In 1998 it was at 100
In 2006 it was at 150
In 2017 it was at 185

For sending it was about 125 in 1992 and now it's over 300. So if we make the argument that not all districts send students that is correct but the overwhelming vast majority do. If parents want a specific program in education and that district doesn't offer it but another does then why not have school choice? You can't ignore the economy of scale. Just as we have regional districts. If we abolished regional districts and told each town to have their own they'd be no way they could afford it.

There's 351 towns in Mass and some districts are regional. If school choice is bad why would Northampton take in hundreds of out of district students? Well given that the population hasn't grown in decades that might be why. Same with West Bridgewater.

As a state public school enrollment has dropped significantly, following national trends due to the birthrate. The cost of operating school programs can increase as there are less students so all districts are fighting over retaining students and trying to get new ones in. I know people in public schools that hate charters with a passion. I know some that love religious schools. It's one thing to put up a fence but it's another for a wall.

The whole belief that the best schools are required for the best jobs still gives me a chuckle.

Which school or college someone goes to means nothing after a year or two working in your field of study. Nothing. Ivy league degrees are for aristocrats to get in at aristocrat law or finance firms where working there is one giant inside joke, but the rest of the high-paying world really couldn't care less.

Many of those S&P 500 tech companies we all own stock in have offices around here. Offices with interns. Most of those interns are coming in from a college like UMass, not Harvard. Same for biotech; people from all sorts of random colleges will be working in the office alongside the Ivy Leaguer.

The whole 'must get my kid into the BEST SCHOOLS to have a good job' crap either stems from third-generation law partners who need to keep it in the family or outsiders who saw it on TV somewhere and believed it. Of course, most parents aren't going to change course because schools are just like religion in that, despite the evidence, the fear of "what if you're wrong" overrides all rational thinking, so off they will go in pursuit of the perfect school for their perfect kids. All you need is a "good enough" school and parents who will foster the learning environment at home to raise a child capable of landing the best jobs in the world.

[mdovell]

Of course there are some jobs that require significant training and education. Law school and medical school exist for a reason. Trade schools exist for a reason. Some institutions have a specialization and I get that. I've heard Norwich University has a excellent foreign language program to the point that the CIA wanted training. Being military they gave a resounding no. CIA supposedly said fine we'll send them there anyway. I've heard that Goldman Sachs supposedly hires out of one of the Ivy's consistently. There can always be some type of private company nepotism, especially in family run businesses. The tech industry has companies poaching each other constantly. Facebook's chief revenue officer just left, he came from Google and before that the Clinton administration. I won't mention it because it might be flagged as a competitor but there's a very specific tech related board where they mention things like this all the time.

I recall one internship I had about ten years ago. The director was a pain and passed away. Her assistant never moved up but new leadership came in and said they'd hire this Harvard grad. The assistant quit. Well the Harvard grad didn't take the job so then there was two openings. I know Harvard grads that don't even make 70K. I had a conversation with a cornell grad about a guy we both know. He was literally on the road to become governor until around 2008. Then he went to Harvard's extension school. He hasn't worked since 2011. He convinces foreigners that he went so they shower him with lodging and food. He's been in Turkey for awhile. Has photos with anyone visiting Harvard to make him seem more important (say Desmond Tutu, Dali Llama etc) He gets certificates from other Ivy's and attends seminars but that isn't really working. There's no deliverable. I know people that have worked in small towns for a year that have more to show then he has in 11. Another got in trouble with UVM because right after he got his MBA he taught one online class there (while in Australia) it got ot the point where they had to put in bold black print on their department site ”_____________ DOES NOT WORK HERE.”

Everyone wants the best for the children, no one can say otherwise. Sometimes you just need what you need to get something done.

[gf2020]

Originally Posted by mdovell

The district I'm referring to is Silverlake relative the town of Pembroke.

Are you saying 300 students school choice out of Pembroke? Or 300 students school choice out of the Silver Lake regional district? I just checked the state school choice list and none of those towns even participate in school choice, so I'm not sure what you are referring to. I have 3 nieces who live in Kingston and attended Silver Lake schools.

https://www.doe.mass.edu/finance/sch...ce-status.xlsx

[gf2020]

Originally Posted by Shizim

If school choice were so prevalent or an option, why aren't kids opting to go to school in Andover vs Lawrence or Lynnfield vs Lynn?

Because Andover and Lynnfield do not offer school choice. Neither do Lawrence and Lynn, for that matter.

[Shrewsburried]

Originally Posted by gf2020

Because Andover and Lynnfield do not offer school choice. Neither do Lawrence and Lynn, for that matter.

There goes the thesis on home valuations decorrelating from district performance.

[maclel]

Originally Posted by id77

The whole belief that the best schools are required for the best jobs still gives me a chuckle.

Which school or college someone goes to means nothing after a year or two working in your field of study. Nothing. Ivy league degrees are for aristocrats to get in at aristocrat law or finance firms where working there is one giant inside joke, but the rest of the high-paying world really couldn't care less.

What if parents themselves are holders of such sinecures and are looking for similar positions for offspring. 7-figure paying jobs at a young age with no entrepreneurial risk are no joke. Moreover, the value of private- education network in those fields can be a multiple of cost. Perhaps not as demented after all...

[johngolf]

The OP, Hammie only posted once but when he talks about hot markets, he should look in his own backyard at Austin TX.

If one has a choice between greater Boston and Austin, go west young man, go west.