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Old 12-11-2012, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,650 posts, read 60,853,687 times
Reputation: 101073

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My brother has been diagnosed with several issues - substance induced paranoid schizophrenia, and Cluster B personality disorder.

Basically his healthcare professionals have told us they don't know which came first - the chicken or the egg -but his decades of substance abuse haven't improved his mental health, that's for sure. Nor have the series of poor choices he's made in his personal and professional life, which have created more stress and more emotional instability.

Add to that the fact that he's ALWAYS been "a jerk." By that I mean, since he was a teenager, he's had a very unpleasant personality - very judgmental, opinionated, deceitful, and in perpetual victim mode.

Well, all this has finally caught up with him, and he is currently incarcerated, with a $250,000 bond, awaiting trial on several felony accounts. Long story short, he broke into a neighbor's house at 3 am, shouting that he was going to kill him - then he went on a rampage and tore up a bunch of stuff at their house and on my parents' property (he was living there because his wife had filed for divorce - but my parents live elsewhere, thank goodness).

Anyway, I have several concerns. First and foremost, I am concerned for my elderly parents. They are 75 and 74 and in pretty good health but this has been very hard on them, even though for years they enabled him and looked the other way when he was acting inappropriately (for instance, he has treated them like dirt for years and let they were letting him stay in their guest house - which he subsequently tore up in a fit of rage).

Secondly, I am concerned for my brother. I mean, he's unlikeable, and acts rude and insulting and infuriating, but due to his violent tendencies, he is on 23 hour a day lockdown in solitary confinement and his trial may not be for several months. My heart would go out to ANYONE in this situation. Plus, he's now on some meds which seem to have calmed him down, and the drugs and alcohol are out of his system. So - he actually LOOKS better than he has in years, and is calmer - but he's still not owning up to doing anything wrong, and is still, as usual, completely self centered.

My question is - where do I draw the line between personal culpability and a person taking responsibility for their own actions, and the challenges of a mental illness? In other words, how much abuse are we as his family expected to put up with? How do I support someone who is so disdainful and destructive? How can I show him love and concern?
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Florida
2,289 posts, read 5,772,216 times
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Have you read Codependent No More by Melodie Beadie or attended Naranon meetings? IMO, there is no reason to take any further abuse, he is an adult, this is his problem to resolve, if your love and concern would have had an impact on him, he would have done what was necessary to get his life together.

Might be time to let go and go no contact.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Kansas
25,939 posts, read 22,089,429 times
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You obviously love him and are concerned. I would tell him that but be careful of him trying to recruit you to enable his behaviors in any way. It is unfortunate that he has ended up where he is but it looks like that now that he doesn't have a choice anymore or anyone sitting there and enabling him that he may get his act together. Surely someone tried to get him to get help but he didn't. On personality disorders, I see no reason to cut anyone slack on that but mental illness is another thing.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:48 PM
 
4,761 posts, read 14,280,752 times
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So far as myself, MY needs come FIRST!

That is my finances, mental health, security, time, energy, and so forth.

Then if I have some of the above left over or "extra", I can choose to share that with someone else or not. If the person is appreciative and well mannered, then I am happy to share. If they are nasty... Well then I have better things to do with my life.

Also I believe in the saying "You made your bed, you can sleep in it!"

So far as your situation, I would go visit him and stay so long as he was "nice". If he became nasty, then I would leave. And tell him that if he can behave, then you will visit.

If he is a very "good boy", then put some money on his "commissary" too. (They can use that to buy personal items, candy, etc.)
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:21 PM
 
18,836 posts, read 37,347,105 times
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Support him, as much as you wish. Distance him from his behavior.

And sorry, sometimes it is "tough love" that helps. Accepting someone's inability to control substances, is the same as admitting that there is no problem. And allows the sick person to blame their behavior on their illness. Wrong. There is personal accountability, even in impulsive disorders. There was a moment of decision, and he made a bad one.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:43 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
8,711 posts, read 11,728,260 times
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I had a relative with Paranoid Schizo, he would constantly do really annoying things and I put up with it for a while. But one day I had enough of the ridiculous problems he was causing, they were CLEARLY things that were unnecessary and only benefiting him. One day I just told him flat out: "You need to start trying to help yourself (because he didn't, just depended on everyone else) and until you do that, I can't help you."

You can enable someone until the point they make no moves to start learning how to work with their disorder and why should they? you're there to pick up the pieces. You can be understanding that your brother's mind is not fully functioning but I'd be damned I let his stress become mine. I been there done that and all it will do is make you pissed off and the Schizo person will be oblivious. Not worth it.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,650 posts, read 60,853,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollydo View Post
Have you read Codependent No More by Melodie Beadie or attended Naranon meetings? IMO, there is no reason to take any further abuse, he is an adult, this is his problem to resolve, if your love and concern would have had an impact on him, he would have done what was necessary to get his life together.

Might be time to let go and go no contact.
Yes, I have read "Codependent No More" and attend Al Anon meetings. I am not codependent on my brother, and my personal boundaries are clearly laid out and if he doesn't abide by them, I terminate the conversation/meeting/whatever.

That's really not my question. My question is: Where does personal responsibility begin and end with a person who has a personality disorder?
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,650 posts, read 60,853,687 times
Reputation: 101073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy_J View Post
So far as myself, MY needs come FIRST!

That is my finances, mental health, security, time, energy, and so forth.

Then if I have some of the above left over or "extra", I can choose to share that with someone else or not. If the person is appreciative and well mannered, then I am happy to share. If they are nasty... Well then I have better things to do with my life.

Also I believe in the saying "You made your bed, you can sleep in it!"

So far as your situation, I would go visit him and stay so long as he was "nice". If he became nasty, then I would leave. And tell him that if he can behave, then you will visit.

If he is a very "good boy", then put some money on his "commissary" too. (They can use that to buy personal items, candy, etc.)
Excellent advice - thank you. This is actually my plan so far. I've gone to see him (last week) and will go again this week. He was tolerably nice - completely self centered and still playing the victim, but fairly well mannered during our visit. When he began to step out of line, I drew the boundary clearly for him and he backed off. I brought him some books and we put some money in his commissary account - not a whole lot, but enough for him to get some goodies.

We'll see how it goes this week.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:34 AM
 
Location: So Ca
26,717 posts, read 26,776,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
My question is: Where does personal responsibility begin and end with a person who has a personality disorder?
I think that his schizophrenia, the most severe mental illness there is, is the primary concern. One can't do anything to change a personality disorder; it's an ingrained approach to the world that is not able to be altered. That's why it's often termed a character disorder. Personality disordered individuals do not usually seek therapy and if they are forced into it, will most likely not see a need to change; that's part of their disorder.

It's encouraging that your brother is now on new medication, and is being forced to take it for a long enough period of time that he may show some improvement. You said that he seems more calm. It might take some time for the street drugs to clear his system and for him to think more clearly but that's huge progress. All you can do right now is tell him that you love him. I think that schizophrenics can improve with family support but they also must learn how to protect themselves emotionally.

I also have a relative with paranoid schizophrenia, diagnosed just after his freshman year in college.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,650 posts, read 60,853,687 times
Reputation: 101073
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now View Post
I think that his schizophrenia, the most severe mental illness there is, is the primary concern. One can't do anything to change a personality disorder; it's an ingrained approach to the world that is not able to be altered. That's why it's often termed a character disorder. Personality disordered individuals do not usually seek therapy and if they are forced into it, will most likely not see a need to change; that's part of their disorder.

It's encouraging that your brother is now on new medication, and is being forced to take it for a long enough period of time that he may show some improvement. You said that he seems more calm. It might take some time for the street drugs to clear his system and for him to think more clearly but that's huge progress. All you can do right now is tell him that you love him. I think that schizophrenics can improve with family support but they also must learn how to protect themselves emotionally.

I also have a relative with paranoid schizophrenia, diagnosed just after his freshman year in college.
Whew, it's a heavy load for a family. Thanks for the reminder that at least we're not alone in this.

The schizophrenia can be calmed by meds, from what I understand - and I truly do have sympathy for anyone struggling with this illness - even the ones who brought it on by substance abuse.

What complicates his case IS his personality disorder. I am not sure there's any fixing it. I am curious to see the effects, if any, of his meds on his personality disorder. Schizophrenic or not, like I said, he's been a complete jerk his entire life. He's really treated his family abominably. We're trying to work through our anger at those issues while trying to address his very real mental illness as well. It's hard to separate the two.

I just started attending Al Anon. Hopefully that will help me get a better grip on my own state of mind as we struggle through this as a family.
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