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Also, please understand that those of us who would decriminalize the drug trade are NOT advocates of drug consumption. We simply look at the bloody realities of the war on drugs and conclude that it has failed. On seeing that, we suggest that it's high time to consider other approaches that do not necessitate such expensive and horrible loss of life. This view is not uniquely my own. It prevails in Europe, and is gaining popularity among those bright enough to see that the war on drugs has been a dismal failure.
Again, if you feel that the "war on drugs" is a good and effective fight, I welcome you to come to Juarez and feel the consequence of your convictions. You seem to think it's a good idea for me to walk the streets of this city, so why don't you demonstrate the courage of your convictions and join me for a couple of months? Although you feel distressed that I am not adequately noble about the continued risking of my life, you seem oddly reluctant to join me here where I live where you could prove to me and yourselves that you believe the "war on drugs" is a good thing.
What's the problem, my saintly friends? Does the prospect of burying your friends and neighbors while you stand ready to duck and dodge the bullets make you nervous? Or is it just that you think an old man like me is better prepared to face death than you are? Come on! You believe in the war on drugs, so stand up and join the fight where you can prove the courage of your convictions. I'll be happy to guide you to areas where your courage can be demonstrated. I'll watch from a distance, since I now consider it incumbent upon you to prove the strength and validity of your beliefs. You're a hundred percent behind the war I'm not. So I have nothing to prove. I've already done my hard time in the streets of Juarez. It's your turn.
And, if your courage is inadequate to save your life in the battle, I'll add you to the long list of people I need to visit in the local cemeteries. We could engrave on your tombstone, "Here Lies Joe of the US who gave his life to the war on drugs." As we read the words, we will know that residents of major cities all over the world are buying and consuming drugs, but, after all, it's the courage of your convictions that counts. You'll be fondly remember by those who share your beliefs.
First of all -- if you've looked around El Paso, you'd see that ethnic purity would be the last thing anyone in El Paso would be bothered with - El Paso is almost as ethnically Mexican as Juarez itself. Maybe about 10% of the remainder almost equally mixed white, black, asian and other. Of course Juarez has it's share of whites too since Mexican isn't really an ethnicity in the first place.
I wasn't really referring to one individual fleeing Juarez but the tens of thousands who are reportedly doing so, coming to El Paso. I think when the very people most needed to create jobs and stability leave, there are terrible consequences. If enough people with money and education pack up and head to El Paso, at some point, it could be too many - and Juarez basically collapses.
That I think will be terrible. Or maybe it's already collapsing, maybe it's too late already. Juarez is too large and important a city of Mexico for it's collapse to go unnoticed however - so yes, I think if too many people abandon Juarez, it's going to be devastating in many many ways.
As far as legalization of drugs as the quick easy solution, it can not be. Even if legalization of every hard drug in the USA would bring instant peace and serenity to Mexico, it would take years to convince the American people they need meth, heroin, date rape drugs, pot and whatever else made legal in order to solve all the problems in another country.
Many years -- and Mexico doesn't have many years to wait. You see, homicides and violent crime are actually down in the USA - although meth addiction is destroying some communities, which isn't going to make American very enthusiastic about having it made legal and openly sold everywhere.
The idea of some other country legally importing every sort of addictive and toxic drugs to push into every American neighborhood, isn't going to catch on in popularity fast enough to be the fix for this, just because the increased use and addiction rates *might* mean enough big profits for all that the cartels end their competition with one another and put down their guns.
I don't know if that overly self-righteous, self-agrandizing diatribe was a direct attack on me or my post, Juan, but I never actually said that you were lambasting the U.S. for x reason. I was responding to malamute's comments. I've met many Juarenses (Cousins included) that are 'patriotic', but send their kids to El Paso schools, go shopping, fill up on gas, have their kids born in El Paso, etc.
For all practical purpouses, we probably agree on a lot of things.... like the fact that this is a two nation issue. We just have different solutions for it.
But the discussion ensues: Let's say that we DO legalize drugs. (God forbid) What now? What will happen to all the foot soldiers running around? The gangs. All those youngsters who have been conditioned to violence. You think they'll put their arms down and go work in the maquilas for $60 a week? They got a taste of the good life, and easy (albeit dangerous) money.... how do you address that? Moreover, you have a nation getting poorer (yes, poorer) and more destitute every day... how is legalization going to help.
Yes, U.S. drug laws mirror the prohibition laws in the 30's, but the big difference is that, the violence and criminality element exists in Mexico regardless of drugs. The kindapping wave that took Mexico City by storm wasn't, at least directly, related to drugs.
The problem is severe inequality in Mexico that's rooted in a 500 year old caste system. There's no social mobility, so there's severe destitution running throughout the whole country. You yourself said it... $60 bucks a week in ANY city in Mexico isn't enough to live on, yet it's the going wage. And that's a problem that is horribly difficult to fix and needs to be attacked from a number of angles: education, taxation, incentives for parents to maintain their children in school. But the biggest underlying problem is CULTURE. We have a culture of poverty, a culture of apathy and a culture of just... adapting to circumstances instead of changing them.
And changing the culture in a place like Mexico requires a rather Draconian policy system. And then, at some point, we might have a discussion of: "What is better, economic and social security, or freedom"
And to AnnieA, .... well, I am just speechless. After reading relatively intelligent posts, reading your one line post was like nails on a chalkboard. Take a short History of Mexico class at your local community college before posting on the Mexico board. And read the sticky from the forum moderator... immigration issues are to be discussed on city data's immigration forum. Or in simpler terms that you might understand... go away.
I still believe that it was Calderon's fault for stirring the hornets nest, we never saw this level of violence before and I don't believe that the cost of human lives for this war is worth it, many people support prohibition because they have never suffered the loss of a dear one personally, or seen the devastating effects the war on drugs, much worse than the "evil" they want to fight.
I still wonder, what is the real reason behind the war on drugs, if the war of Iraq was supposedly against terrorism but the true motives were oil, what can be expected of the war on drugs, who is becoming rich at the expense of those who are dying like flies in some cities?
You would rather things stay like they were in the 80's and 90's? People were killing people with impunity. I think you don't want to admit to the problem in Mexico (You do from this statement and you don't because you always offer a counterpoint). You also have a very unreasonable attitude to the problem. Juarez is violent because of the Narcos, and the smaller criminal vultures are empowered because of the fear authorities have. Mexico city has it's problems also, did they not just kill a major soccer player there? That is the problem, killing is the solution to disputes with these guys, and that is the culture that I hate. The NARCO culture, Not the Mexican culture that I have experienced. Mexico is rich with natural resources, talent, and good honest people that deserve better. The revolution has begun and Calderon help start it. I am glad that Osiel Cardenas, Fuentes Carillo, Beltran Leyva, Arellano Felix have been dismantled. Mess with one of those families in the 90's, and by mess with I mean ask one of their girlfriends to dance, or cut them off on the highway or a number of stupid things, and they would beat you or kill you. The cartel members would prance around like royalty because of the guns in their pockets and the gang at their sides.
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werone
You would rather things stay like they were in the 80's and 90's? People were killing people with impunity. I think you don't want to admit to the problem in Mexico (You do from this statement and you don't because you always offer a counterpoint).
Werone, I never said Mexico was the perfect country with no problems, truth is that every country has problems, but in all fairness I get the feeling that you are quick to post but slow to inform yourself, your posts contain half facts I'll clarify some of them.
who died in the 80's and 90's with impunity? you mean the assasinations of Ruis Massieu and Luis Donaldo colosio? it is true those guys were killed and the truth was never known, but come on, wasn't Kennedy killed as well? he was the president of the USA and he was killed with total impunity, so the US is no better than Mexico then, people is killed with impunity too, and you should be well aware of the broken justice system in the USA which favor whites over other racial minorities, even Obama said it not so far ago and this caused a public outrage.
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You also have a very unreasonable attitude to the problem. Juarez is violent because of the Narcos, and the smaller criminal vultures are empowered because of the fear authorities have.
I go to Juarez often and I'm well aware of the problems there, yes they have to do with the Narcos, this is no secret but before the victims were those involved with the Narco, my friends there told me look if I wanted to earn 1,000 dollars I would just have to try to cross the border with drugs and deliver them on the other side, but you know how many people dies everyday for doing this? Even if you succeed the narcos will kill you when you are no longer useful, I have friends who told me about how they were the bright side of Juarez because they were creating jobs and doing positive things in the city to counter what the narcos did, unfortunately one of them had to close his nightclub and is living in el paso now, the night club went broke because nobody wants to go out at night anymore.
Like I said there has always been killings in Juarez because of narcos, but only those who worked for them suffered the consequences of their wrong decisions, but before Juarez was a liveable city if you stayed away from trouble, the narcos weren't treathening business owners of kidnapping people or all these kinds of stuff they are doing now, they weren't doing random killings like we are seeing now, all this started since calderon decided to drag us on his stupid war on drugs, without even asking for the people's permission, we are a democracy at least supposedly so as a citizend I'm outraged and I'm not the only one, and just wait when elections come and you'll see what will happen with calderon and his party.
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Mexico city has it's problems also, did they not just kill a major soccer player there? That is the problem, killing is the solution to disputes with these guys, and that is the culture that I hate.
Like I said before my friend you are quick to post but forget to get your facts straight first, Cabañas, the paraguayan soccer player who was shot, didn't die, he was shot yes but he wasn't murdered, and this is something that happens in the USA also, not so far ago a University teacher killed 3 people and murdered other 3 in alabama.
and I could provide you with an endless list of people who dies in the USA yearly because of lunatics, the same happens in Mexico and it happens in the entire world so I don't really see what your point is, I also believe it's kind of hippocritical to point fingers and pass judgement to Mexico for a problem that is much worse in the USA.
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The NARCO culture, Not the Mexican culture that I have experienced. Mexico is rich with natural resources, talent, and good honest people that deserve better.
Now you changed your tune, before you said that if you lived in Mexico you were either a narco, or a poor peasant, I'm glad that you are starting to be more informed about the country
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The revolution has begun and Calderon help start it. I am glad that Osiel Cardenas, Fuentes Carillo, Beltran Leyva, Arellano Felix have been dismantled. Mess with one of those families in the 90's, and by mess with I mean ask one of their girlfriends to dance, or cut them off on the highway or a number of stupid things, and they would beat you or kill you. The cartel members would prance around like royalty because of the guns in their pockets and the gang at their sides.
This isn't true, before the drug war started wth calderon, Narcos didn't mess with non narcos, since this drug war started Zetas appeared in several places in the country and started to do exactly what you are describing, we didn't have this problems before, and I directly blame Calderon for this mess, I'm frankly disappointed with him and I believe that his presidential term has been a waste of time, resources and valuable human lifes, he could have done much more but instead he decided to wage a war that has made Mexico more violent, more unsafe, and has ruined the image of the country abroad, specially in the US.
To conclude I'll say that I don't really see the point of waging a war against drugs, imho it is nothing but bull, you said that you have military trainning, so I assume you've been part of the US army, so you must know all the kinds of drugs that soldiers use, specially when on duty, I'm friends with a vietnam vet who married a mexican woman and had a son with her, and he has told me lot of things that happened when we was there.
Unfortunately those obscure interests that keep the war on drugs going, even though it has been a dismal failure (except for those who benefit from it) are still present, so the legalization of drugs is still a pipe dream, people who oppose them do have a point though, with substances like Meth, but honestly why is marijuana ilegal? or lsd, ecstacy, those are drugs that are used by most young people in the world, specially in those who go to nightclubs of electronic music parties, and this will continue you know it I know it, it doesn't matter how many narcos are captured or killed, drug usage will continue increasing as well as drug availability, so what's the point?
Werone, I never said Mexico was the perfect country with no problems, truth is that every country has problems, but in all fairness I get the feeling that you are quick to post but slow to inform yourself, your posts contain half facts I'll clarify some of them.
Thank you for taking the time. I know you love Mexico, I do also. I often frequented Juarez as a teenager. I really liked going there. I never liked the Narcos and the juniors. They fed on fear. I did not like that, the fact that they could kill anyone and get away with it. They corrupt the police with money and threats. If you were an honest cop in Juarez you were killed or were forced out because of threats. The cops pull you over and you pay a "Mordida", basically a bribe. I have family with great work ethics in Mexico, they make good money in agricultural food processing. They live in fear, and a criminal element has tried to kidnap one of my cousins. Another family member of mine tried to start a trucking business. He invested his money in some nice trucks and was geared up to go. He found that the existing trucking companies pay the state/government people under the table, and they wanted their cut from his as well. It was difficult for him to start because of cash flow, he folded and sold his trucks. Do you remember all the women being murdered in Juarez? I blame the lawlessness of the Narcos for empowering these rapist/murderers. Everything I said was aimed at the Narcos, and the political system in Mexico. The acceptance of the Narco's is what I have a problem with. They value the wrong things. I cannot believe music in Mexico honored these cowards. They think they are tough because they don't play by rules, it is easier to kill someone when they are not armed and have their back to you. That is the way they see being Men..... to me they are cowards, and I wish them to feel the fear of god, the fear that they are wrong in their ways.... why would you accept that in your community? Why would you accept someone who believes they are above the law?
I still believe that it was Calderon's fault for stirring the hornets nest, we never saw this level of violence before and I don't believe that the cost of human lives for this war is worth it, many people support prohibition because they have never suffered the loss of a dear one personally, or seen the devastating effects the war on drugs, much worse than the "evil" they want to fight.
I think this is a prevailing view in much of Mexico, and one that I believe misrepresents what is actually happening. I think the amount of control the cartels exerted on politics pre-Calderon was somewhat perilous, but at least life carried on normally right?
I've said it in previous posts: the violence in all of Mexico is consequential of Mexico's democracy actually flourishing. Three parties are now constantly keeping each other in check, and any bribes or cartel involvement are exposed by the other two parties vying for power in a particular position. Unfortunately, this has unleashed a wave of violence.
So like I've said previously: What's better, safety and political stability, or freedom? In a place like Mexico, it'll be a long and arduous road for us to have both.
I think this is a prevailing view in much of Mexico, and one that I believe misrepresents what is actually happening. I think the amount of control the cartels exerted on politics pre-Calderon was somewhat perilous, but at least life carried on normally right?
I've said it in previous posts: the violence in all of Mexico is consequential of Mexico's democracy actually flourishing. Three parties are now constantly keeping each other in check, and any bribes or cartel involvement are exposed by the other two parties vying for power in a particular position. Unfortunately, this has unleashed a wave of violence.
So like I've said previously: What's better, safety and political stability, or freedom? In a place like Mexico, it'll be a long and arduous road for us to have both.
I agree with your statement. I think the question is better like this:
What's better: safety, political stability, and democratic freedom, or the present lawless freedom?
The road has been travelled by many a country, and those countries are better off for it.... The U.S. is very proactive in crushing it's own corruption, alot of work was done in the past 100 years to bring us where we are now.
The road has been travelled by many a country, and those countries are better off for it.... The U.S. is very proactive in crushing it's own corruption, alot of work was done in the past 100 years to bring us where we are now.
The counter argument would be that places like Singapore exert tremendous amount of control and deprive the citizens out of rights taken for granted by Americans, but... the standard of living is great.
And
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werone
What's better: safety, political stability, and democratic freedom, or the present lawless freedom?
... like I said... in Mexico the former is actually not an option. We are paying an extremely high price for all the corruption and treachery that we tacitly allowed our leaders to have. We are paying an extremely high price for the true democracy brought on by having 3 parties. Is it worth it? I don't know... I'll tell you in 50 years, if my kids live in a better country than my parents and grandparents lived in because of it. I sure hope so...
The counter argument would be that places like Singapore exert tremendous amount of control and deprive the citizens out of rights taken for granted by Americans, but... the standard of living is great.
And
... like I said... in Mexico the former is actually not an option. We are paying an extremely high price for all the corruption and treachery that we tacitly allowed our leaders to have. We are paying an extremely high price for the true democracy brought on by having 3 parties. Is it worth it? I don't know... I'll tell you in 50 years, if my kids live in a better country than my parents and grandparents lived in because of it. I sure hope so...
Singapore is the country with the exalted one, the dictator like guy that turned the country around right? I think I saw a show on 60 minutes about him. I know you cannot chew gum in Singapore! I would not like anything that extreme. I like the U.S., It's home.
One Mexican man I know was saying he thinks Mexico needs a dictator like Franco of Spain. One who would be fairly heavy handed like imposing a strict curfew in cities like Juarez and get control over the entire country but then prepare it for freedom like Spain now has. He said that Mexico needs a dictator who will decide that all parents must keep kids in school and bring the education levels up and would impose law and order in those areas so that people can feel more free again.
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