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I half agree with you. I definitely agree that our quality of life is deteriorating. However, I don't think the answer is drilling for more oil. Oil is the problem. It is a non-renewable resource. Eventually, it will run out, maybe not in 5 years, but perhaps in 50. Instead of subsidizing oil companies, our government should be subsidizing clean energy technology that's developed and manufactured in this country. Drilling oil is a temporary solution to a permanent problem. The environmental concerns are also real. Ever seen an L.A. morning? It's disgusting. Future generations are going to get stuck cleaning up the enormous mess were making, if such is even possible.
I also don't think urban environments are evil or unAmerican. The sprawled out version of America is a product of the past 50 years. Prior to that, most people lived in cities. Big cities are keenly American. Chicago is the home of the skyscraper. New York City is a beautiful and iconic American place. Our nation's history is rooted in cities like Boston and Philadelphia. My grandparents lived in uban evironments, road the streetcars, and walked to the grocery store. I also don't believe that Europeans are crammed into cities because they can't afford to live in suburbs as many Europeans do live in the countryside. However, on the whole, Europeans choose to live in cities because they are viewed as enjoyable places of culture and interaction. This is certainly true of places like London, Paris, and Rome.
You are correct that drilling oil is a temporary solution, but I believe drilling oil gives us the time we need for a much more painless transition to improved energy technology. Like I stated in my previous post, I dont believe we should have our standard of living reduced because the goverment will not allow access to our own oil in the interest of the enviromental movement. Oil is the basis of our entire economy, we need it desperately. Given 10 or 20 years of technological development we will need it much less than today. Drilling new oil will buy us the time we need. Also I was not slamming urban America, but considering what it might be like when millions of Americans are forced into cities because of an oil shortage induced economic collapse. Overcrowding, and dirty dangerous conditions will make our cities resemble those of third world nations. That was really my concern. Again it goes back to my point of how badly we need to be independent of foriegn oil sources. A combination of increasing our domestic output and developing new energy technology is the wisest path in my humble opinion. We need to preserve the American standard of living for the next generation.
Since we have a goverment that is unwilling to tap our own oil resources I guess we will have to live with the scenerio described. We will have to reduce our standard of living because those in power want that to happen anyway. Allowing an oil crises to happen (by not drilling our own) they will adavance the enviromental agenda they support. They want us to ride busses, to give up our big vehicles, they want us to consume less and live in urban enviroments. We will all be forced to live with this economic reality because our goverment decided to not allow the drilling of our own oil in the interest of forwarding the enviromental movement. We should stop being sheep and start being Americans again, elect a goverment that supports keeping our standard of living high. We should not be dependent on foriegn oil supplies, and we should have access to the oil we need. For the past 100 years the automobile has brought us great freedom and an awesome lifestyle. I do not want to give mine up, and Im sure most other people dont either. I dont want to ride a bus, I dont want to live packed like sardines in an overcrowded city. I am not a European, I am an American. Dont get me wrong we should use our resources wisely, and I support the development of new technology that promotes energy efficiency (like the volt). I dont however think accepting a reduced standard of living is the American thing to do. I say drill baby drill, while at the same time we develope those alternative energy products like Volt. We do this and we will no longer be dependent on hostile nations and we will not have to live with less.
I would love to give my automobile up. Save money via not spending huge bucks on gas and high insurance cost. That money could then go back into the stores to create profits and create jobs!
Since we have a goverment that is unwilling to tap our own oil resources I guess we will have to live with the scenerio described. We will have to reduce our standard of living because those in power want that to happen anyway. Allowing an oil crises to happen (by not drilling our own) they will adavance the enviromental agenda they support. They want us to ride busses, to give up our big vehicles, they want us to consume less and live in urban enviroments. We will all be forced to live with this economic reality because our goverment decided to not allow the drilling of our own oil in the interest of forwarding the enviromental movement. We should stop being sheep and start being Americans again, elect a goverment that supports keeping our standard of living high. We should not be dependent on foriegn oil supplies, and we should have access to the oil we need. For the past 100 years the automobile has brought us great freedom and an awesome lifestyle. I do not want to give mine up, and Im sure most other people dont either. I dont want to ride a bus, I dont want to live packed like sardines in an overcrowded city. I am not a European, I am an American. Dont get me wrong we should use our resources wisely, and I support the development of new technology that promotes energy efficiency (like the volt). I dont however think accepting a reduced standard of living is the American thing to do. I say drill baby drill, while at the same time we develope those alternative energy products like Volt. We do this and we will no longer be dependent on hostile nations and we will not have to live with less.
Our standard of living was obscenely high, it needs to drop a little bit so the rest of the world won't be dirt poor. The environmental movement doesn't want to make everyone live in cities -- small towns are sustainable, too. You don't have to drive your big honking SUV, you can get a Prius, or ride the city bus, or take the train, or walk or ride a bike. Mass transit is not evil, it's a good way at reducing consumption and it exists in small towns as well as big cities and suburbs. If we don't reduce consumption, we will suck the earth dry and then we will die off in mass numbers because the planet can no longer support us.
There's nothing wrong with living with less. Other nations have done it for centuries. We WILL have to live with less, there are simply too many people on this planet to support an inflated lifestyle (unless you want others to starve).
Obviously, $6.50/gallon gasoline would be a huge economic disaster for our country. If it gets to that point, hopefully the auto companies will roll out compact hybrids that get 60 mpg and that sell for around $12,000. (Sadly, higher gasoline prices would probably result in higher manufacturing costs.)
It would probably plunge us head-on into an even worse depression. If people no longer had money for anything except gasoline and food, other industries would suffer resulting in increased unemployment and a vicious circle of layoffs and business closures.
God help you if you own a house. Masses of unemployed and underemployed people earning poverty wages can't afford houses. If the price of gasoline, food, and other consumer goods skyrocket, something's gotta give somewhere. I think housing prices would certainly be affected. New housing construction would no longer be feasible and market conditions would dictate plummeting prices for existing homes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeeg
Canada and most of Europe all have traditionally lived with higher gas prices then we do, many of them much higher ($7 - $9 per gallon range).
Presumably, gas prices in those nations would increase, too.
Also, it's very possible that while the the Canadians and Europeans are spending that kind of money on their gasoline that they get value in return for their tax dollars. I would gladly pay $6/gallon if that meant having high quality socialized medicine. (Ironically, socialized medicine would probably pay for itself by lowering the percentage of GDP we spend on health care that still leaves tens of millions of people uninsured or under-insured from about 17% of GDP down to perhaps 13 or 14%.)
Alternatively, you might say that Americans are spending less on gasoline than Canadians and Europeans but spending far, far more on health care.
Last edited by Bhaalspawn; 02-24-2011 at 01:44 AM..
It won't cause our country to collapse, but it will cause some growing pains as our country learns to reinvent itself again.
We'll be forced to go back to smaller vehicles and create communitiy areas much like Europe has always had. As many things that can be supplied locally as possible. We'll have more of the homesteads and small farms again. The town butcher, the town seamstress & tailor, the blacksmith, the town markets to sell locally produced foods and wares, etc. etc.
All of this instead of importing foods and goods from thousands of miles away.
This raises an interesting question. Would it be more affordable to live in a smaller town (say 20,000 people) in the midst of a farming community than it would to live in a big city? It's more likely that everything would either be within walking distance or a short commute, and you're not far away from the farm fields.
We should not be dependent on foriegn oil supplies, and we should have access to the oil we need. For the past 100 years the automobile has brought us great freedom and an awesome lifestyle.
You make an excellent point about the automobile that people take for granted. It really has given us an unprecedented amount of freedom, which is why higher gas prices are of such great concern.
Regarding American oil, is it possible that our politicians are thinking that we should preserve it until we really really need it--a time when the rest of the world is running out of oil but humanity still hasn't figured out how to power everything with renewable energy sources yet? Maybe it makes sense to purchase other nations' oil now while they're willing to sell it to us and hang on to our own oil for later. How much oil do you think we have? In the Dakotas the oil companies are "Rockin' the Bakken", but do we really have enough to provide for all or even most of our needs right now?
There's nothing wrong with living with less. Other nations have done it for centuries. We WILL have to live with less, there are simply too many people on this planet to support an inflated lifestyle (unless you want others to starve).
In other words, the world is going to experience Malthusian problems. Perhaps one solution is to focus on promoting birth control and population reduction?
I definitely agree that our quality of life is deteriorating. However, I don't think the answer is drilling for more oil. Oil is the problem. It is a non-renewable resource. Eventually, it will run out, maybe not in 5 years, but perhaps in 50. Instead of subsidizing oil companies, our government should be subsidizing clean energy technology that's developed and manufactured in this country. Drilling oil is a temporary solution to a permanent problem. The environmental concerns are also real. Ever seen an L.A. morning? It's disgusting. Future generations are going to get stuck cleaning up the enormous mess were making, if such is even possible.
I wish the government had a crystal ball (and a lot more knowledge and common sense) so that it could accurately predict which industries it should subsidize. I don't believe in government subsidies for alternative energy, because the government is not capable making such a prediction. The ethanol industry is a perfect example of this. Government chooses the corn-to-ethanol industry as a "winner" in the alternative energy race, even though it is proving to be a terrible option to burn corn for fuel. Does that make sense when food prices are rising? Nope. By trying to solve one problem, the government created another. As is usually the case.
I understand that we can't live on oil forever, but IMO, we won't really find the best alternative energy option until oil is no longer a viable option, or supply is REALLY dwindling. The best invention will be borne out of necessity. It seems logical to force the issue with subsidies for "clean energy", but all it does is create the illusion that a solution works, when we really have no idea if it's the best option or not. The only real solution will come from actual market pressures, not a wild guess from a wise central planner. By trying to go off oil while it is still the cheapest and most efficient fuel source, we are only wasting money and placing unneeded hardship on ourselves.
If our government is subsidizing oil companies like you say, it creates a similar problem. That would make oil "seem" like a more viable option than it really is. I would definitely agree that we shouldn't be subsidizing oil companies in any way. But, given the enormous influence of oil lobbyists, I'm sure we are subsidizing it somehow. *Sigh*
Last edited by michigan83; 02-24-2011 at 07:25 AM..
First off Mass transit isn't a workable option for much of Michigan.
Second there are thousands upon thousands of idle farm land in Michigan. Just take a drive in the thumb in the spring and see for your self.
Third Michigan has wells capped as does places in Canada because the price of oil has npot hit that majeic number yet to make the profits the oil companys want from it.
A friend moved to Canada 5 years ago after being laid off from his job in Michigan. He works drilling oil in SK. They cap 4 out of every 5 wells that come in.
By the way up there they are importing workers from Asia to work the fast food indurstry as all the Canadains work for much higher wages in the oil fields and supporting industry.
The truth about the powers that be in the USA is they simply want to sit on our own oil while the rest of the world dries up. Then we will be the largest and only oil producing country in the world. Why else would we sit on it while the American people struggle to make ends meet? No matter how much oil is left or how much time we have using it. They need and will continue to move forward with other forms of fuel. But right now, today we need something to stop this country from falling on it's face. Strange how the middle east has been at one another's throats for thousands of years but the oil prices never seemed to be so drastically effected until more recent times.
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