[baystater]

Originally Posted by Cato the Elder

I'm not too worried b/c I think MI needs new blood - get rid of some of the tucky in Michitucky. It's destined to happen as Detroit shakes off its rust belt past. There are a bunch of 30-somethings in my block and neighborhood who have moved in during the last several years - all open-minded, college-educated with white-collar jobs. I'll take one of these families over five hate-mongering, ignorant families any day.

Your probably going to see more of these people coming to a town near you in the next decade or so. There is opportunity in Michigan. I can see it and I bet there are alot of other people outside Michigan that can see it. Just take a long term view of the situation. I guess right know I would call this the "Growing Pains" of Michigan going from the rustbelt/auto industry past and move toward other industries that will make MI prosperous again. Let the people who want to leave, leave. It will make it cheaper and easier for the people who want to come and make something of Michigan to do so.

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by baystater

Your probably going to see more of these people coming to a town near you in the next decade or so. There is opportunity in Michigan. I can see it and I bet there are alot of other people outside Michigan that can see it. Just take a long term view of the situation. I guess right know I would call this the "Growing Pains" of Michigan going from the rustbelt/auto industry past and move toward other industries that will make MI prosperous again. Let the people who want to leave, leave. It will make it cheaper and easier for the people who want to come and make something of Michigan to do so.

Agreed - that's why you have to take many posts with a grain of salt - they reek of irrational apathy from these growing pains. People see what they want to see and the grass is always greener elsewhere. New viewpoints are needed and addition by subtraction is a good thing. People who get ahead in life are those who see opportunity when no one else does - sounds about right here in MI these days.

[Frankawitz]

Boy it's funny how many people have their heads in places the sun don't shine. You keep telling yourself everything will be fine, Then when you need a plumber or some other trades person to come fix something at your house you'll be crying why the high prices. Take the Travel Industry they are complaining this will kill their Businesses, But some of you don't care it's not your livelyhood that is going down the drain, Most of you who talk of how Great Michigan will be after all us working people leave to find work will find that theres no one here to fix your sink or all the small jobs other people do for you upper crust folks. I look at what the people in Lansing have done to Michigan will get theirs, cause like they say "What comes around goes around" they'll get theirs. If you look at your numbers 199,465 left in ten years and 239,345 left in 6 years of Grandhole running things that says a lot of your Governor. and when her Taxes kick in there will be more people leaving. And to think John Engler caused all this. Cause that's what Grandhole says and you people bought it. I onw a Service company and with these taxes it will put us out of Business I wonder if there are numbers showing how many businesses have left Michigan because of this Governor?

[nightofLN]

[FONT=Arial]When the grass is dead on your side of the state line, Hell yes the grass is greener where there is work. Michigan is getting worse each month, You people keep trying to plug your fingers in a dyke that is not even there anymore. Opportunity in Michigan, I guess you could say there is opportunity, you could try to capitalize on the down fall of a state I guess you could call it opportunity, but if you rate it on a scale, the opportunity in southern states is ten times better.
Why try to pick the best turd out of the septic tank and say wow, I found the best in the crap tank, why not just climb out of the crap tank and go where there are no turds?
I have argued with these people for 2 years, two years ago they told me I was nuts and that the economy was bottomed out and was coming back nicely, last winter they said that the housing market was making a good come back and that the future was bright and that I was nuts. I found that in the spring of 07 I had a much harder time finding people trying to tell me I was a pessimist, but there were still people who said Michigan is doing ok and will do good this summer.
Well this summer was a bust, real estate was off from 20% in sales and 25% in dollars sold for this summer. Many people are now saying what I have been saying for the last year.
I still do not see the bottom for Michigan, and as the whole country slips to rescission, Michigan will lead the charge.
Michigan has nothing to bring is back.
But I still hear the now relatively few people like the above post who say that what is happening is not happening, the old bush "do you believe me or your eyes?"
I will ask the question Clinton asked when he first ran for office, [do you feel better off now then you did 4 years ago?] 9 out of 10 people will say hell no.
But some here although it a very few will say things like let them leave all the better for us, reminds me of the attitude that dickens wrote about , Are then no prisons, are there no work houses, hard ship is a way to rid us of the surplus population.
Sounds like our administration. LOL [/FONT]

[baystater]

Originally Posted by Frankawitz

Boy it's funny how many people have their heads in places the sun don't shine. You keep telling yourself everything will be fine, Then when you need a plumber or some other trades person to come fix something at your house you'll be crying why the high prices. Take the Travel Industry they are complaining this will kill their Businesses, But some of you don't care it's not your livelyhood that is going down the drain, Most of you who talk of how Great Michigan will be after all us working people leave to find work will find that theres no one here to fix your sink or all the small jobs other people do for you upper crust folks. I look at what the people in Lansing have done to Michigan will get theirs, cause like they say "What comes around goes around" they'll get theirs. If you look at your numbers 199,465 left in ten years and 239,345 left in 6 years of Grandhole running things that says a lot of your Governor. and when her Taxes kick in there will be more people leaving. And to think John Engler caused all this. Cause that's what Grandhole says and you people bought it. I onw a Service company and with these taxes it will put us out of Business I wonder if there are numbers showing how many businesses have left Michigan because of this Governor?

Your point on the "small jobs" is duly noted but really won't hold water in the long run. Yes in the short run you guys will empty out and go south because that where the jobs are at for now. And it will be tougher to get a good Plumber, Mechanic, etc., etc. But in the long term this is how it going to play out. You guys will leave plus countless others that are either looking for work or have just given up on the state. The state as a whole will be in trouble for a couple of years let say anywhere from 2-5 years. Maybe even an economic collapse in parts to the state. This will force the Michigan government to panic and pull out all the stops and make incentives after incentives for new businesses. Some of these businesses incentives will work and will draw some businesses. It will be a slow process at first and will probably look like it will be failing at first. But after a little while word will finally spread to the east and west coasts where it tough enough to make a living no matter what type of job you have. And since there are a lot of entrepreneurial folks in these areas that want to start businesses don't feel that they can get a fair shake because of all the competition will figure "what the hell." and take the plunge to the Mid-west. Michigan has a distinct advantage in the fact it 1. ready as infrastructure to work with. 2. Are close to many first class colleges to pick up workers for there new businesses. and 3. And this is more subjective point. Michigan has the great lakes. I've found that most people at least from the east coast want to live close to water and unless the great lakes completely dry up (which actually look like it is kind of happening.) this will bring a lot more to new folk to Michigan as opposed to other states. You could agree Chicago would take a lot of people but to be honest I believe Chicago is reaching a saturation point. Speaking of saturation points do you think the south is going to grow for ever? I bet in 15 years or so it will be completely saturated and jobs are going to be tough to find. Guess what happens from there. That right people from the south will head north for work. Michigan will be one of those state where they head for. And even if you guys don't want to come that's OK. There plenty of east/west coasters and illegals to take the place of the people that have left.
One last thing:
"Most of you who talk of how Great Michigan will be after all us working people leave to find work will find that theres no one here to fix your sink or all the small jobs other people do for you upper crust folks"

Becareful of what you assume. I ain't uppercrust for sure. I know what it like to work 8 - 12 hours on a loading dock. And coming from New England I was born to labor and toil. I have been fortune through hard work and looking for opportunities that I have gotten in to more of a white collar gig now-a-days. But I have not forgotten where I started from. But I also don't want to live in the past and get stagnate. So I look for opportunities and I see those opportunities in MI.

[khfar]

There plenty of east/west coasters and illegals to take the place of the people that have left.

This is a very good point. Coming from Texas, we have an overabundance of Hispanic workers. They work HARD, and are typically very cheap. Most of the housekeepers, lawn care workers, fast food workers, etc. are Hispanic. I would not be surprised at all if they started moving up this way, for more job opportunity.

[Cato the Elder]

First of all, I'm not even going to acknowledge the poster with two posts b/c it's obviously the same guy who continually gets banned and then creates a new alias.

Like I said, irrational apathy - people with too much emotion and personal feelings getting in the way of evaluating objectively. Here's an objective source, the U of M Ford School of Public Policy:

"We're holding ourselves back on progress by only focusing on negative manufacturing losses when we should also focus on what's positive within the state," said Thomas Ivacko, a program manager at the University of Michigan's Center for Local, State, and Urban Policy.

I couldn't have said it better myself. It's not about pretending that everything is hunky dory or thinking that playing mind games with ourselves will change reality. But the fact remains that all the haters out there accusing people of closing their eyes and calling people "negative nancies" are themselves the ones only seeing what they want to see - the death of manufacturing which to them is the death of MI. For those who are doing well with blue-collar jobs, good for you. For those who are not and are blaming everyone and everything around them, it's time to wake up. If your family got off the boat in Ellis Island several generations ago and none of you still have a college degree - SHAME ON YOU. Yes, SHAME ON YOU. You had your chance and the *** is up. Now the new immigrants are killing your jobs b/c they usually work harder and can do it much cheaper and just as well!!! And if groups like the UAW does not allow market forces to act naturally by artificially inflating the value of someone who can turn a screw, the job gets shipped to Indian or Mexico. That's capitalism at work. I'm not going to cry a river. Read what the Ford School says and educate yourself to rational reality.

U-M report: Michigan moves toward a ‘knowledge economy’
ANN ARBOR, Mich.—Descriptions of Michigan's economy as imploding are inaccurate and counter-productive, a new report says.

Moderator cut: do not repost copyrighted articles

[Frankawitz]

WOW you said a big nothing when it comes to having a Business for 22 years which I have serviced the Tri county area doing Plaster Repairs and Painting all the Eductional jobs don't help me one bit, As for I should have gone to school I did I spent 4 years at What's a Matter U, SMSP do you know what that stands for? I have done every thing I can to keep my Business going but with all these TAXES I just can't afford to live here I have NO INCOME I guess it's no big Problem for you who have JOBS but some of us are getting hit harder then you folks, So you don't know what I have to live with every day and how I'm going to pay my House payment and all these F%^*ING TAXES so take your HIGHER EDUCATION and live on Cato you don't have to worry about folks like myself cause you could careless if we loose everything we have worked for. As for going back to school I don't have Thousands of Dollars to pay for Education and there are no Loans I can get so tell me what choice do I have? Nothing I have to move cause I'm two house payments from living on the streets, Maybe you'll see me on the side of the road with a sign saying I'll work for FOOD. People like you crack me up you have never been in a spot like I'm in and your going to tell me how I should have done thing in my life. Like I said you upper crust kill me, You don't know what it's like for people who are facing loosing everything You don't know. I see ads on Craig's list for painters wanting to pay $8.00 an hour I made $10.00 an hour back in 1984 so tell me. What do I do in this type of market.

[steve1873]

Is there not talk of a massive return to places like Western New York and Michigan in a few years when places like Florida and Phoenix run totally out of water. The great lakes can save these places when there is no water left

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by Frankawitz

WOW you said a big nothing when it comes to having a Business for 22 years which I have serviced the Tri county area doing Plaster Repairs and Painting all the Eductional jobs don't help me one bit, As for I should have gone to school I did I spent 4 years at What's a Matter U, SMSP do you know what that stands for? I have done every thing I can to keep my Business going but with all these TAXES I just can't afford to live here I have NO INCOME I guess it's no big Problem for you who have JOBS but some of us are getting hit harder then you folks, So you don't know what I have to live with every day and how I'm going to pay my House payment and all these F%^*ING TAXES so take your HIGHER EDUCATION and live on Cato you don't have to worry about folks like myself cause you could careless if we loose everything we have worked for. As for going back to school I don't have Thousands of Dollars to pay for Education and there are no Loans I can get so tell me what choice do I have? Nothing I have to move cause I'm two house payments from living on the streets, Maybe you'll see me on the side of the road with a sign saying I'll work for FOOD. People like you crack me up you have never been in a spot like I'm in and your going to tell me how I should have done thing in my life. Like I said you upper crust kill me, You don't know what it's like for people who are facing loosing everything You don't know. I see ads on Craig's list for painters wanting to pay $8.00 an hour I made $10.00 an hour back in 1984 so tell me. What do I do in this type of market.

I guess upper-crust these days means going to college and getting a white-collar job. AFAIK, none of us are posting here are living in Bloomfield Hills and driving around in Bentleys. I'm not saying you should go back to school now, but that you should have gone when you were 18. At this point in US history, most any able-bodied person under the age of 70, especially if you're white, should have had a shot at college. At the least, have you heard of the GI Bill? It made college basically the new high school. Yeah, it was more difficult for some that others, but you had a solid chance unlike the guy who grew up in Masailand or the hinterland of China. Nope, you were probably dozing off in high school saying that school is for chumps while driving your Chevy around town cruisin for chicks. Like some of us have said, it was only a matter of time before certain occupations, like painters, became cheaper. It doesn't take any particular skills to paint - two arms and some patience. Why should I pay you $40/hour to paint when Joel down the street will do it happily for $8/hour and be able to somehow raise a family. As some generations of Americans get fat, lazy, higher-priced lifestyles, and entitled mentalities with little attempts at getting an education, it doesn't mean that their salaries should go up for no apparent reason to let them survive. Give me a friggin break.