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Michigan is a fairly high tax state but without the things needed to be high tax an successful: either extreme high skilled concentration of jobs (N CA or NYC) or outdoor amenities found no where else (S CA, Seattle). Michigan has some wonderful natural areas but not to the point that masses of rich people move there like Colorado. If Michigan had same tax structure as Tennessee it would be doing much better.
Other than Grand Rapids all Michigan cities have major issues from the demise of their dominate industry, automobile manufacturing. Most population growth occurs in metro areas and only Grand Rapids and Ann Arbor are growing robustly.
There’s this 1980’s talking point that you are show casing here about the “demise of the Auto Industry”. The auto industry is actually doing quite well and has transitioned away from the bloat it had prior to 2008. The majority of the Auto industry work (more than 50%) done in Michigan is in the R&D, Tech, and corporate portions of the industry. These are more sustainable white collar jobs. It is the brain trust for automotive and all brands including Asian and European keep a presence because of it. That doesn’t even count the many huge suppliers. Michigan is much better positioned in that regard. There’s a reason Detroit as a region has faired better than it’s rust belt counterparts and it’s because of this.
What your referring to is actually the demise of the high paying manufacturing job that built Michigan into an economic giant during the 20th century. It left Michigan with a workforce that was highly paid, but under educated. As those jobs left there was largely nothing to replace them with. Most of that workforce has dissipated either through attrition or retirement. The 2020 labor market in Michigan is very different than the 1980 version. While Michigan is still reliant on manufacturing, the workforce is more educated, and the product mix diversified.
Where I’d agree with you whole heartedly is in regards to Michigan’s tax and business climate. Overall when I look at rankings with other states Michigan ranks near the middle on both. Michigan has a long and glorious history of electing politicians very weak visions and a genius for not being able to get out of their own way. It has helped mire the state in mediocrity. Though now that I’m in Kentucky it seems to share this trait with Michigan in that it has so many ingredients for success but again can’t seem to get out of it’s own way.
Tennessee is very aggressive with these things but if you look at it has a whole, these policies disproportionately benefit Nashville, while Tennessee’s other cities have either average growth, or in the case of Memphis down right stagnation. So even that doesn’t seem to be the full answer.
I do think Michigan needs to continue to diversify. It needs to continue to incentivize reinvestment in Detroit. Detroit is the states flagship city and while it’s metro area is holding it’s own and staying constant in population. The lack of cohesion between the city and suburbs have hurt the area overall and it doesn’t have a strong identity. The stronger that identity becomes the easier it becomes to attract and retain new residents.
"Michigan has a long and glorious history of electing politicians very weak visions and a genius for not being able to get out of their own way. It has helped mire the state in mediocrity."
mjlo, I am interested in your point of view on this. Please give examples of what you mean, specifically.
Always amused when millennials and politicians toss out "let's build rail" with no thought as how much it will cost nor how it will be funded. No one in my family in Grand Rapids opines for a train to Grand Haven or Holland.
With some of the money that is currently spent on roads. The energy efficiency of trains will keep them running long after cars are gone.
I'm amazed that there are still people who think that increasing the population is a good thing.
Denver - mentioned above is a perfect example. It got popular. People flocked there. And ruined it. It is just another expensive place filled with chains and insurmountable traffic and parking problems. One place after another get ruined by huge population surges that no one knows how to deal with. It is nice that Michigan does not have this issue. Unfortunately, our day is coming. We are not far from the time where water will be the primary draw for any place. I may be dead or too old to care by then. Maybe my kids will move back from the popular places.
Agreed. Denver, the Front Range in general and the mountain towns of Colorado are a mess these days with the over-population of Colorado over the past 10-20 years. Its nothing like it was in the early 2000s, and we don't need or want that here.
I worry about what is happening up north, in particular to the "gold coast areas" along Lake Michigan and the inland lakes.
I see the mega-cottages, and massive ramp-up of real estate, affordable housing shortage and how its ruining the character of Traverse City, Torch Lake, Leelanau, etc. I fear we are going to see an influx of more east coast / west coast money ruining these areas and getting away from the reasons people vacationed there in the first place.
Too many boomers wanting to retire in multi-million dollar lakefront monstrosities. At least the winter hopefully keeps some of them away, but these people seem to have no problem only using a place 3 months out of the year and fleeing back to Florida or Arizona.
...I picked a random "expensive" (for Detroit) home in Detroit on Zillow. Literally the first one I picked. Asking price, 350,000. Tax assessed value, $80,000. Yearly taxes, $5,400.
If that home sells for asking price, and is taxed at the same rate, the new owner will be paying almost $24,000 per year in property taxes. That's literally 10x what I pay for my home in another state, which is only valued a around half of what that home is...
While I appreciate your point, that's not how it works.
If that home sells for ~$350K, it's assessed value will likely be about half of that. Now that will still double the current tax bill on that home, but it will be miles away from $2K/mo - this isn't New York (yet).
Due to Michigan's tax laws, property taxes cannot increase more than a certain percent each year unless a home is sold, meaning when someone buys a house, taxes often skyrocket. I'll give an example:
I picked a random "expensive" (for Detroit) home in Detroit on Zillow. Literally the first one I picked. Asking price, 350,000. Tax assessed value, $80,000. Yearly taxes, $5,400.
If that home sells for asking price, and is taxed at the same rate, the new owner will be paying almost $24,000 per year in property taxes. That's literally 10x what I pay for my home in another state, which is only valued a around half of what that home is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan
While I appreciate your point, that's not how it works.
If that home sells for ~$350K, it's assessed value will likely be about half of that. Now that will still double the current tax bill on that home, but it will be miles away from $2K/mo - this isn't New York (yet).
Just to work the actual numbers of the example....
If the example Detroit home has an assessed tax value of $80K, and if the annual property tax is $5,400, then the state property tax millage is 67.5 (dollars per each thousand SEV). That sounds about right, I seem to recall that the highest millages in the state are somewhere around 110.
That $80K state equalized value (SEV) is limited to an annual increase of 5% or the rate of inflation, whichever is the lesser number. But if the house is purchased by a new owner, the SEV gets reset to 50% of the market value of the house. In this example, the SEV of a $350,000 house would be $175,000. Divide the new SEV by a thousand to get the millage and then multiply that by the 67.5 millage rate and you get an annual property tax of $11,812.50 - almost double what the previous owner of the house was paying, but still far less than $24,000 originally computed.
Disclaimer - this only applies to houses that are homesteads (primary residences), it does not apply to houses that are rental properties. Also, the numbers used in the example were provided by the quoted posters; Detroit's millage rate in 2019 was actually 69.6 mills.
I wasn't aware the tax assessed value was reset to half of the home's value, and, while that does make it easier to swallow, I'd say there's still a problem being illustrated.
"You have a long way to go to become even remotely familiar with the state. Spend another ten years exploring and observing and then get back to us. "
I've been traveling all around the state for all my life, and ever since I was 16, so 6 years of my own exploration.
This is incorrect. The northern part of the east side is extremely beautiful. Take a trip down the Au Sable river and get back to us, or camp along the dunes at the end of the Au Sable, or visit Oscota, or turnip rock, or. . . . There are even beautiful areas in the Detroit Metro. Have you ever visited Grosse Ile, Northville, Belle Isle, Kensington Metropark, Have you Kayaked the length of the Huron River? Biked through Hines park in the the fall? Ridden the rail to trail path between South Lyon and new Hudson and beyond? Did you know that people come from all over the world to visit Greenfield Village and the Henry Ford?
I grew up on the Au Sable. I've visited Oscota, Turnip Rock, been to Groose Ile and Belle Isle, Bois Blanc Island, and all throughout the metro detroit area. The east side of the state does not compare with the west in all categories. Grand Rapids is a better city than detroit. Traverse city, Charlevoix and Petoskey easily beat the ausable, tawas, alpena etc.
"You need to do a bit more exploring and experiencing become making gross generalizations. The truth will not come to you on the internet. "
I made a post that long and you think I don't know what I'm talking about? I've seen more of Michigan in 6 years than most in their 60's I've talked to. I did nothing but travel around the state during covid. I had no job, and decided to take 3 months off for the summer to explore. Not to mention coming back and forth through the state all my life!
While there are parts of Detroit that are ugly and crime ridden, those are not the parts where visitors go. The memes are misleading. Detroit has some of the best architecture and history of US cities. Downtown, midtown Eastern Market and to a lesser extent Corktown are vibrant, pretty and fun. Some of the buildings in downtown are especially stunning and it is hard to find anything like it anywhere. The redeveloped Riverwalk parks are beautiful and again very rarely paralleled in any US city. Belle Isle is beautiful since the State took it over and now rivals any downtown park in a major US city. Restoration of Belle Isle continues. They are also developing all of these areas rapidly and continuously. Ignore suburbanites who are stuck in their single visit to the city in 2002. Stop looking at memes and come visit the city. Spend a month here before making generalizations. You would be surprised to discover that Michigan does not have the worst infrastructure. In the more scientific studies, Michigan is not even in the top 10. In the more subjective polls or articles Michigan is at worst 9th or 10th. Detroit is a destination spot, we even have cruise ships that stop here. People from other states exclaim how terrific the City is. Our problem is with the perceptions of our local population who just cannot accept that the city is not the desolate place it was 15 years ago. There are even a number of nice bicycle paths in the City. Of course the practicality of bicycle use is limited by our weather.
Detroit has a unique character to it, and I love the city. But after visiting other cities and comparing it to michigan, those cities had more to do, less crime, better infrastructure etc. All I'm saying is if michigan is a destination state, than we need to put our money in this becoming a destination.
"High speed rail seems awesome in theory, but in practice it is not very successful. It costs a huge amount to install and does not get the use needed to recover the cost. There really is not that much need for people to go from Detroit to Lansing or grand rapids. Telecommunications (internet) is quickly eliminating the need that there is. Not much in Lansing other than the state government and MSU. Very little need to visit either for most people. I am not sure Grand Rapids wants and even bigger flood of people from Chicago. The Chicago invasion is quickly destroying the natural beauty and relaxed lifestyle of the Northwest corner of the state. Also driving up prices to the point where locals are having to move inland and north. The health and appeal of a place is not all about the numbers of people crowding into the area. There is a reason people from Chicago are flooding into SW Michigan for vacations and vacation homes. Unfortunatley they are bringing with them what theya re trying to get away from. "
I understand the high amount to install and to be honest I don't know the total cost, it would be insane. All I know is the rest of the world are installing them, and america is not, which I think would hurt us in the long run. China can ship anything in their state in 4 hours. Detroit to LA would be 4 hours. I think BECAUSE of the internet, we need these rails. No one will visit anything if it takes a day just to travel, when they could get anything done on the internet. High speed rails encourages tourism, traveling, human connections.
"I see urban gardens making Detroit/Flint special,"
"Urban gardens are cute, but not the answer to anything Do some research into the places that have opens and then closed in Detroit. Cities are not the place for farming. Urban gardens and back yard gardens make a nice hobby and may supplement some people's diets a bit, but they are not the answer to anything. Flint ont he other hand seems ot be a lost cause. You may eventually see Flint eradicated and turned into farmland - if it is not too contaminated and riddled with underground obstructions to do so. "
I go to MSU for horticulture. I disagree with this. Urban farming has a place. Growing food in our backyards have a place. Mainstream agriculture is unsustainable, and aquaponics and agroforestry will eventually replace all of it. Something like aquaponics needs very little land, and detroit would be a perfect place for this.
"I also see Detroit being a hub for tech startups, with incentives to keep growing companies in Michigan. Now is the time to push for this, since everyone is leaving California and New York and it doesn't matter as much where the company is located due to the push for everything being online."
"Hence the lack of need for trains. Detroit is already pushing for this, as is Oakland county. Of course every other city is doing so as well. Detroit is a better place for manufacturing start ups. We play to our strengths. One of hte unique things about Detroit is the availability of every kind of manufacturing process you can imagine. Anything that can be done to a piece of metal, can be done here. Some of that is high tech, some is low tech. It is an advantage that no other city has. We do not have the things that tend to attract lots of high tech start ups (nice weather, free money, fashion and trendiness mecca). Tech start ups have an amazingly high failure rate in the first five years. they may not be the best businesses to attract after all. Other cities are already realizing that. Also the art movement that every city thought they could use to turn tings around, and casinos too. None of these have been the answer for most cities. You have to play to your strengths not attempt to copy other cities with strengths that you do not have. Detroit has a great work force with a good work ethic. More high quality universities, especially in Engineering, per capita than pretty much anywhere (with a few exceptions), amazing historic architecture, and unparalleled manufacturing and processing capability. "
Interesting points on the manufacturing. Makes sense
"G Honestly GR is the only decent city for a young person to live in along with the suburbs being pretty safe and having wonderful downtowns like the East GR gaslight district. "
You need to learn more about Detroit. Do you know which US City has more theater seats than anyplace East of the Mississippi except Broadway in New York? Do you have any idea how many music venues there are in Detroit? Have you need to the theater district or the stadium district, or Greektown, or Campus Martius on a Friday? Do you know how many young people now live in downtown, midtown, corktown eastern market and absolutely love it here? Have you seen how fast a new or newly reconditioned apartment building or condo sells out? Clearly you are nto very familiar withthe better Detroit suburbs either. Detroit offers the best variety of different types of suburban living that you can find almost anywhere (a few exceptions, but very few).
Anyone who is a young person that I know has NEVER said that they want to move to detroit. It's either Chicago or Grand Rapids. This is an observable fact. GR is leagues ahead of detroit for young people. The downtown is so much better currently.
"So I think Lansing should be a much better destination than it is now."
This is very true, Lansing is a dull city with no real reason to visit except MSU. The capitol is moderately neat to see, but in an hour you are pretty much done seeing everything Lansing has to offer. An amusement park may be helpful if properly located. A casino is not the answer. Casinos add little to nothing. Casinos draw people into the casino, not into the city.
Tis is a mistake often made in cities. The renaissance center in Detroit is a good example. You need things that draw people into the City, not into the building. Governments like their tax money, but otherwise they are of little benefit to a city. For a time, nearly every city thought the answer to urban decay was casinos. Now many many cities have them and they discovered they are not the answer to anything. theme parks are the same. Cedar point is a very successful theme park. Did it turn Sandusky into a thriving and lively city? Ask people you know who go to Cedar point whether they can tell you anything at all about Sandusky.
You may be right about the casinos. I would still argue that sandusky gets some serious commerce through it because of cedar point, though. I think michigans adventure should be in lansing to have a better market and to keep michigan money in michigan, since detroiters would be more likely to go instead of going to sandusky.
Traverse City Role: The tourism destination. The nature. Keep that how it is and improve the cities to be walkable and bike-able.
Tourism is gradually ruing TC. Compared ot a decade or two ago, it is no longer the cute bayside city. It is filled with Kitschy places like put put golf and souvenir shops, mystery spots, and chintsy cheaply built and ugly hotels. TC is not completely ruined, but it is getting there quickly. Having nearly ruined TC, the tourists and tourist developers are starting to look at other nice places like Petosky.
I don't agree with tourism ruining TC, TC has a nice balance of tourists and locals. I'm from petoskey, and I can tell you everything is dead in the winter, minus the ski hills. We need to change that, but how? thats a tough one. Tr
Detroit is commerce hub with wonderful walking and biking and cheap produce for citizens,
Get to know your state a bit better, especially its primary City. Avoid falling prey o water cooler gossip and memes, or internet videos and propaganda. Get out and see things for yourself. Meet people. Learn not to generalize.
All of my opinion is mostly from my own experiences in these places. It sounds like you think I'm a detroit hater and I'm not, I like detroit. BUT I also see the cities downsides too.
Public transportation: I think we should be progressive and put in a high speed train system in Michigan. California started this, but was stopped by Trump.
Big yikes on this one. CAHSR was not stopped by Trump. It was slowed by the extreme incompetence of its execution. The project is still happening. It's just that it's gonna take an extra couple of decades. This is because of things like land acquisition, cost overruns, environmental impact assessments, etc.
Trump did temporarily stop the Gateway Project in New York, which is something that really never should have happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerKnepp
Please, let me know your thoughts on all of this!
I can tell that you are a fan of central planning, so I'll let you know about one of my more ambitious ideas.
My personal dream scenario is that the state moves the capitol to St. Ignace or Mackinaw City. Having a forward capital would be cool and they could make it into a planned city right next to the Mighty Mac. I do not see a lot of value in Lansing and thus would abandon it in favor of this proposal. This could be done over the course of 20-50 years as to limit the damage to the local economy.
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