[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

This is an excellent point, which is why I argue (on other forums) that we cannot fix health care in a vacuum but rather that we also need to repair the rest of our economy. Until we fix the underlying disease, which in my view is global labor arbitrage and the Malthusian forces brought about by population explosion, we won't be able to fix our nation's health care system.

I agree. An exponentially growing population dependent upon finite resources = no sustainability. Understanding basic physics should be part and parcel to economic theory.

[alliteration]

Originally Posted by scottmi

You can't do that with creative positions. That's why I don't think if in a system like that it'd be fair to let 4 people work their butts off to become a doctor, a nurse, a scientist and an engineer while one person can make the same wages (or more) painting flowers and singing koom-ba-yah in the corner of an art gallery.

But realistically, there's already a big problem in America with too many people wasting potential on fluff degrees or careers (I want to be a musician! or I want to be a pro basketball player!) and with India/China/Korea kicking the US' butt in many ways, I think young people need to start cracking down on legitimate careers that will keep them employed through the next few very-likely-to-be-economically-turbulent decades.

Besides, work can be boring and all math equations/line graphs if needed. You just do it for a pay check. Nothing stops a person from doing creative stuff in their own free time.

I think you, along with many other people, are downplaying the importance of artistic endeavors and pursuing the liberal arts. Who are you to determine what a "fluff" degree is or is not? I'm with you, I think that certain artistic values are completely subjective and are based on talent and creativity and an education in those areas only reinforces that. Yet I completely disagree when you say that people are wasting their potential on learning those types of things. Many people are out there working and living for more than just a paycheck; many want the ability to incorporate their interests, ideas, and creativity into something that will not only provide a source of income, but won't be a slog through **** everyday. Who are you to say that they are wasting potential and can't choose to do that if they want?

What about the historians and sociologists that work their asses off for their respective degrees? While its a very different area of study than that of a doctor or engineer, a Ph.D in History from a good research school takes just as much work as that in a medical field.

And what we need in turbulent economic times is not focusing on just one or two professions, it must be a fostering and growth in all areas. If you feel that we are really getting "our butts kicked" by foreign countries, you probably need to sit down and think about some things. Like about how fortunate we are that we can have museums, art galleries, sporting events, and zoological societies. Those places and the people that staff them are just as important as the engineer to stress tests screws or the architects that designs those buildings. Other countries are not nearly as fortunate as we are in regards to their freedom when it comes to choosing careers and jobs. I went to school with many students from India, and a majority of them were becoming doctors and engineers and felt immense pressure from their families to pursue those areas of study. At least many of us have the choice to choose what we want to do according to our interests. Unfortunately, like I said before, if we are no longer allowed to pursue those things that interest us, there will be far more unhappy people, and a whole lot less job openings to fill. And any of us who do take part in certain activites that provide recreation in any form should be happy that that we have the people who care so much as to provide us with that. We can't let that slip away, no matter how much you feel that we are "falling behind."

[tuebor]

Cliffie and Indentured Servant, I'm not sure we really disagree all that much.

Originally Posted by Cliffie

I disagree. A steady inflation rate + the spiking cost of living + flat wages the past decade + enormous numbers of people losing FT positions with benefits and being forced to work part-time as Wal-Mart greeters because that's all they can find = things going downhill. The poverty rate has risen every single year during the last decade, at the same time we've supposedly had the greatest economic growth in recorded history.

Cliffie: if the cost of living is spiking, then the inflation rate is not steady. But the cost of living didn't spike until a couple of years ago when gas prices rose, and increased diversion of corn into our gas tanks drove up food costs (college tuition has been going up faster than the general rate of inflation for 20+ years, and we've had bubbles in stocks and real estate, but the general rate of inflation was steady for a long time, despite minimum wage increases). Your comment about the poverty rate is consistent with what I said earlier in this thread about why past minimum wage increases have not had the predicted ill effects, i.e., the benefits of economic expansion have gone disproportionately to the wealthy.

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

In light of this, I would have to respectfully disagree with Tuebor. Tuebor also sighted [sic] histories, but I was disappointed in the depth of his or her argument, which was lacking. I would like him or her to note specific case study examples and how he controlled and isolated the impact of minimum wage increases on labor participation. I am not saying that there is not empirical evidence to back up what he or she asserts, as I believe the assertion he or she made has indeed been valid at times. However, I dispute that one can make the claim that raising the minimum wage will NEVER impact negatively upon the rate of employment. The truth is that it all DEPENDS. It depends on the PARTICULAR situation that the business and or local economy and or national economy finds itself in. The CURRENT situation, I believe, is not conducive for a minimum wage hike, as a general rule, based upon supply demand dynamics.

Ind. Servant: The very first thing I said in my first post was, "I don't know if $10/hr is reasonable at this time." And I did not say a minimum wage increase *will never* lead to an increase in unemployment, I said it *never had*.

It should be clear from what I've written so far that I do not disagree that the effects of a wage increase will depend on lots of variables. It's certain opponents of wage increases who are ignoring the particulars, because they repeat that textbook argument every time a wage increase is proposed, regardless of circumstances. That's why I attacked it; I've heard it over and over, and things never turn out like that argument says they will.

I'm basing my claims mainly on my memories of what was said about wage increases in the past and how things actually turned out, but if you want data, here's a study:

The impact of the minimum wage

I could cite more, but why bother? Those who want to cling to the textbook argument can always turn to the Heritage Center or the Cato Institute or the like, and they'll find a study that tells them what they want to hear. Like I said, you know what they say about economists. (If you don't, the old joke is that if you placed all the economists in the world in a line, you'd never come to a conclusion.)

[1eyedjack]

I know of one small restaurant owner that fears this proposal. She said she would have to raise prices to cover the increase, and feared it would drive away customers, and force her to close. She does run the place on her own sometimes, but does have some high school type of help at times too. Why should a small business owner have to be told what to pay someone? Especially a minor that is learning how to do a job! This increase will just be trickled down to the consumer, we will all pay for it. Have to pay $5 a scoop for an ice cream cone, and the dollar menu at the burger worlds will change to $5 too! Then once you add the fat tax to everything, that will make it to where nobody will eat out anyways. Thats another topic though.

[Cliffie]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

This is an excellent point, which is why I argue (on other forums) that we cannot fix health care in a vacuum but rather that we also need to repair the rest of our economy. Until we fix the underlying disease, which in my view is global labor arbitrage and the Malthusian forces brought about by population explosion, we won't be able to fix our nation's health care system.

But it's not as if doing away with the unions, and maybe rounding up some extra citizens and shooting them (as is actually done in some countries), is going to magically fix everything. The unions (when their collective head is screwed on straight) has some seriously positive contributions to make, and dang, the worst thing we could do now in a certain sense is just erase them and find ourselves living in a Charles Dickens novel.

I think we forget that in this country, nearly every citizen is radically overcharged for nearly every medical service. Ever get an itemized list of services after a hospital stay and see that they charged you $45 to give you an aspirin? That's not a joke, I'm sorry to say, but the $45 figure dates from the mid-Eighties so you can be sure the price has gone way up since then. That's another thing we need to fix. People seem to think we'll magically come up with the money to pay for all those $45 aspirins, and WE DON'T NEED TO. We need to make the aspirins cost what they really cost.

[danimarie3x3]

I disagree completely. Theirs no reason why we can't make 10 dollars an hour. If you want to be a doctor you will be making over 10 dollars an hour so whats the problem? I work at a stinkin dollar store, busting my ass each and every day only making $7.40 an hour with no insurance. If I made 10 dollars an hour, I would NOT complain as much as I do. I know you probably think working in a dollar store is easy, I did too Until I got accepted for the Job. You are the one that does it all! I have to be the miracle worker and IT SUCKS! Everyone I work with does less than I do and gets paid more! If you want to be a doctor or a singer or whatever it is that you want to do then you most certainly will be making over 10 dollars an hour so you can't even start to argue about that. Not everyone in this world has that kind of money to go to college with to get a great career for themselves ( I don't) so why can't we work in a place we want to be and get paid fairly for it? I understand people who go to college are working very hard to get a great job, but what about those who can't afford college? Does that mean we have to be labeled as not hard workers because we didn't go to college? That's why the minimum wage should go up so those people can make a better life for ourselves.

[preferentialtreatment]

It`s a damn no brainer.People migrate and thats it for this state.Why did the europeans came here to begin with???Michigan politicians have to do more than that to keep the people here or risk losing 50-70% of the population.America without it`s immigrants would be nowhere or none knows this place`s history.

[tjay]

how about not raising min. wage and lowering inflation? :}

what? no way. its more more more, bigger bigger bigger and nothing is ever enough enough for the united states of greed.

[mr penguin]

Originally Posted by danimarie3x3

I disagree completely. Theirs no reason why we can't make 10 dollars an hour. If you want to be a doctor you will be making over 10 dollars an hour so whats the problem? I work at a stinkin dollar store, busting my ass each and every day only making $7.40 an hour with no insurance. If I made 10 dollars an hour, I would NOT complain as much as I do. I know you probably think working in a dollar store is easy, I did too Until I got accepted for the Job. You are the one that does it all! I have to be the miracle worker and IT SUCKS! Everyone I work with does less than I do and gets paid more! If you want to be a doctor or a singer or whatever it is that you want to do then you most certainly will be making over 10 dollars an hour so you can't even start to argue about that. Not everyone in this world has that kind of money to go to college with to get a great career for themselves ( I don't) so why can't we work in a place we want to be and get paid fairly for it? I understand people who go to college are working very hard to get a great job, but what about those who can't afford college? Does that mean we have to be labeled as not hard workers because we didn't go to college? That's why the minimum wage should go up so those people can make a better life for ourselves.

I so respect your point of view as far as you work hard, do more than those around you and that you deserve more than $7.40 an hour. I agree. You probably do. The part that is sort of hidden is that the company may not make a sufficient profit to be able to pay more than that. There seems to be a perception among people at "entry level jobs" that the money is there (just look at all this merchandise, the boss is rich) but they just wont give me my share of it. Think of this for a minute if you would. The next person I hire already has a job. I am looking for the person who is obviously underpaid at some crap job but is busting his ass anyway and who it's easy to see knows more than anybody else at his job. He's the guy who is NOT standing around chatting and bitching about how his job sucks. I'm looking for somebody with a brain, not an attitude. And when he tops out on the payscale at my place and I just cant afford to pay him more and keep the doors open I know I will probably lose him to somebody that can. I might even help him find that job. I know it must sound cliche, but when you go to work at the dollar store my advice is to first of all consider that all work is honorable. Good for you, you are contributing instead of laying down and whining. Second, make it your goal to be the VERY BEST EMPLOYEE there. Know more about the job than the guy who's running it and more than any other employee there. Do it for the sake of self-satisfaction if nothing more. See if that doesnt get you to a better job. I'm betting it will and that job will be a distant memory sooner than you'd think.

[hsxeric]

As someone who works two jobs, one making minimum wage and the other very near it, I can tell you this is stupid. There is no reason you should make $10 an hour to do something that requires no education or skills at all. And what do we tell the people who worked hard for four years to earn college degrees and are only making $15 an hour as teachers and social workers? "Sorry guys, but the McDonalds kid is pulling in almost as much as you." That's ridiculous. You can live off the current minimum wage. You may not be able to afford anything fancy, but you can get an apartment, have clothes, and feed yourself. If we raised the minimum wage, it might help out those who are making very little, but prices on goods would rise and crush those making $15-$25 an hour. Not fair.