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No doubt, because Political SCIENCE is a BS vs a BA degree. Again, the SCIENCES (yes, even fringe) are what is getting a commission today. Too many kids with Bachelors of ARTS these days. Grades would certainly help the cause as well.
Tell that to Arizona State University. Where I went to college you could get it either as a BA or a BS-- all depended on how many math classes you wanted to take. Same held true for my major.
They care about grades more than the major. It held true when I was on an ROTC scholarship 20+ years ago and it still holds true today. Outside of the professional branches (med corps, jag corps, etc) the services aren't overly interested in your major. If your grades are better, you have a higher probability of getting your choice in career paths because of the way the services manage the OMLs.
They care about grades more than the major. It held true when I was on an ROTC scholarship 20+ years ago and it still holds true today. Outside of the professional branches (med corps, jag corps, etc) the services aren't overly interested in your major. If your grades are better, you have a higher probability of getting your choice in career paths because of the way the services manage the OMLs.
For Army ROTC, that was the truth when you and I were in it, but it does not hold true today.
ROTC has, for a couple of years now, had some specific majors that feed into specific branches. For instance, if you wanted to go Signal or Finance or Quartermaster or Chemical or ADA, etc, etc, there are withhold majors that get preference for that branch as long as you maintain above a certain minimum GPA (and it's not all that high).
For example, Finance would take you if you got a Statistics or Math degree with > 2.75.
All things being equal, the higher grades, the better-but for these programs, if you attain that minimal GPA, request the branch as your first choice, and (sometimes, depending on major and branch) agree to sign an Active Duty Service Obligation (3 more years), you will receive active duty and that branch.
I have personally seen Cadets with 2.80 in an engineering major leverage this program into active duty.
Above all, try to get a job that will be agreeable to you and pay well after retirement (you probably don't care about money now, but you will as you get older). I guess the Air Force would be best for that.
Avoid anything that could bring you close to combat (another youth thing is wanting the "glory" of killing a bunch of enemies in some brilliant way). You might get killed or worse - maimed for life, a paraplegic with dain bramage for one example. You're not being paid enough for that, and our Fatherland doesn't need any Defense from you at this time. We're not being attacked.
Serious question: have you ever been in the military? If you have, did you ever make it past E4?
Quote:
Originally Posted by totsuka
The services have changed since I was in but don't commit to a 20 year career until you know what it is like being in the service.
That's about all the advice I have for the OP. It's like not even going on a date with the girl yet committing to marry her.
As far as OCS, at least in the Army, they're really looking at people with STEM degrees. It's tough getting into Army OCS now with the RIF. They're certainly not going to cut West Point.
... That's about all the advice I have for the OP. It's like not even going on a date with the girl yet committing to marry her.
As far as OCS, at least in the Army, they're really looking at people with STEM degrees. It's tough getting into Army OCS now with the RIF. They're certainly not going to cut West Point.
Within my small community, they were only looking at officers with STEM BS degrees [with exception of chops who are all accountants].
With the exception of the chop, all line officers in that community are nuclear power pipeline graduates.
For Army ROTC, that was the truth when you and I were in it, but it does not hold true today.
ROTC has, for a couple of years now, had some specific majors that feed into specific branches. For instance, if you wanted to go Signal or Finance or Quartermaster or Chemical or ADA, etc, etc, there are withhold majors that get preference for that branch as long as you maintain above a certain minimum GPA (and it's not all that high).
For example, Finance would take you if you got a Statistics or Math degree with > 2.75.
All things being equal, the higher grades, the better-but for these programs, if you attain that minimal GPA, request the branch as your first choice, and (sometimes, depending on major and branch) agree to sign an Active Duty Service Obligation (3 more years), you will receive active duty and that branch.
I have personally seen Cadets with 2.80 in an engineering major leverage this program into active duty.
I know that in the early 90s that the Finance Corps required specific majors-- which is why I placed it on my branch OML because I knew that I'd never get selected for it (we had to have at least 1 CSS branch in the top 5). I currently teach CGSOC at the FT Belvoir Satellite campus and I see every kind of college major for branches like ADA, QM, Chemical, etc. Do those branches like specific majors? I'm sure they do but I don't know how they shape that in colleges or in branch selection. Most folks I know that were branched ADA or Chemical didn't have it as their top choice or even in their top 3. So if you're at the top of the Cadet OML and you have a degree those branches prefer, how does the Army make sure the Chemical/ADA/QM branch gets you when it's your last choice or it's not on your OML at all?
My co worker has a son in ROTC down at the Citadel and the ROTC department keeps pushing grades, not majors (he is competing for an ROTC scholarship). That's current data and it seems to be pretty consistent with what I experienced. The only restriction I remember with my ROTC scholarship was that I had to take "X" amount of credits in certain areas (foreign language and something else I don't remember) to meet the conditions of the scholarship. Had I not been on a scholarship, I would not have had those requirements. I don't even remember a discussion on branches other than branch day at Advanced Camp but those branches were represented by units at Bragg, not leaders from the respective schools. My personal selection process was based mostly on what looked liked it would be fun to do. It was also shaped by the ROTC cadre but I don't remember a single one of them recommending a branch other than their own.
I know that in the early 90s that the Finance Corps required specific majors-- which is why I placed it on my branch OML because I knew that I'd never get selected for it (we had to have at least 1 CSS branch in the top 5). I currently teach CGSOC at the FT Belvoir Satellite campus and I see every kind of college major for branches like ADA, QM, Chemical, etc. Do those branches like specific majors? I'm sure they do but I don't know how they shape that in colleges or in branch selection. Most folks I know that were branched ADA or Chemical didn't have it as their top choice or even in their top 3. So if you're at the top of the Cadet OML and you have a degree those branches prefer, how does the Army make sure the Chemical/ADA/QM branch gets you when it's your last choice or it's not on your OML at all?
My co worker has a son in ROTC down at the Citadel and the ROTC department keeps pushing grades, not majors (he is competing for an ROTC scholarship). That's current data and it seems to be pretty consistent with what I experienced. The only restriction I remember with my ROTC scholarship was that I had to take "X" amount of credits in certain areas (foreign language and something else I don't remember) to meet the conditions of the scholarship. Had I not been on a scholarship, I would not have had those requirements. I don't even remember a discussion on branches other than branch day at Advanced Camp but those branches were represented by units at Bragg, not leaders from the respective schools. My personal selection process was based mostly on what looked liked it would be fun to do. It was also shaped by the ROTC cadre but I don't remember a single one of them recommending a branch other than their own.
Your coworkers son is in a different category. Citadel grads can get active regardless of major or GPA, as can any graduate of one of the 6 senior military colleges (Citadel, Texas A&M, North Georgia, V. Tech, VMI, Norwich). Grades matter because of how they put you on the OML, which will impact his branching chances.
It's very different now, and major CAN matter if you want a certain branch. By the way, Finance is consistently one of the earliest branches to fill up (the only branches that have consistently higher competition to get into are IN, MS, AV)-but it's that way because it's so small. The ones that want it know they want it.
It's almost unrecognizable from our days. I lived through the same process you did with the top 6 and have to put two combat arms, etc., etc., and it was voodoo to us how branching worked, but that’s not how it works anymore. Cadets tend to be all over the map on their understanding, due to both cadre limitations and personalities, and Cadet personalities-they hear what they want to hear and filter things that aren’t helpful to what they want.
Branching process is briefed at LDAC, it’s supposed to be briefed on campus, and at LDAC, the branch day is kind of a big production, and the algorithm is available-but once a Cadet decides they ‘want’ a branch, they will tend to block out anything else that conflicts with their getting that branch.
The process changes every year, so what’s true below may have changed in the last 1-2 years, but in general, it’s trying to fine-tune the process to get people sorted where they want to go within reason.
In a very short form, the algorithm is:
1) Every accessions branch gets a certain number of active allocations
2) Cadets get a number of points for performance-GPA, LDAC, PMS ranking, PT test, extracurriculars, etc.
3) Cadets are racked and stacked. There is a #1, there is a #5000 (or so). They no longer get told where they are before the accessions process-they must infer from their performance. Between our accessions and today, there was a LONG period where they WERE told exactly where they stood on the national OML.
4) Two preference sheets filled out: active, guard, reserve, ed delay is #1, #2 is branch preference for active.
5) Cadets decide if they are willing to risk an Active Duty Obligation (3-year additional commitment) for getting one of (I think 3?) branches of choice. It’s not a certainty it will be granted or exercised. It’s like buying insurance, really.
6) Guard or reserve contracts go guard or reserve. Almost never approved to 'revoke' a GRFD contract.
7) HERE IS WHERE SPECIAL PROGRAMS COME INTO PLAY. If you have one of the ‘desired’ majors for a branch, signed an ADSO, have a minimum GPA, and put that branch as your #1 choice, you receive active duty and the specified branch. Each branch that is considering it-last year, SC, OD, CM, AD, EN, QM-has a different list of qualifying majors. If you get one of these slots, that is removed from the available branch slots.
This is the part that I think you’re still trying to wrap your head around. Yes, major *Can* matter now. Generally, a GPA of 3.2+ is somewhat competitive for active duty. Other things can overcome a lower GPA, but if you have a 2.8, you’re generally going to be out of luck-but the case I’m talking about was a computer science major with a 2.8, who asked for Signal, and got active duty. One of his peers who had a 3.3 in Criminal Justice with similar extracurriculars and OML standing didn’t get active, which really brought it home how much this concept affects the process if you are in one of the desired majors (and it's mostly engineering, unsurprisingly).
8) Order of merit cutoff now established based on slots left and cadets left on list (without a branch from special programs) are looked at. Anybody left on list above cutoff who wants active gets it, plus any senior military college graduate (Citadel, Texas A&M, etc.) who wants it and whose PMS endorses. Remainder get sorted into guard and reserve based on preference.
9) Educational delay considered for those on active list who ask for it. Anyone can ask for ed delay, but I don’t believe guard/reserve get it granted.
Now we get to branches for those who didn’t get their branch through special programs:
1) The first step is ‘prebranching’. Cadets say whether they want to be considered for their top 1, 2, or 3 prebranch choices-and there are algorithmic reasons why you might only put one.
2) In prebranching, each *branch* is filled to 40% of allocations-so for instance, if Armor had 100 slots, 40 of those slots would get a name put against them.
3) The next 15% of allocations are filled cadets in prebranching who signed an ADSO. So at MOST, 55% of any branch is filled up.
Now that prebranching is over, it's on to 'branching'.
4) ALL remaining branch slots (the last 45%) and ALL remaining Cadets who received active and don’t have a branch from special programs or the previous processes go into the ‘DA Branch Model’ (DABM), which is an algorithmic process that sorts Cadets by the 3 factors of-quality (measured by OML position), desired branch (the higher the better), and diversity (sex, ethnicity). This is how quality gets distributed across force. That is how you see the fairly high quality Cadet (again, OML is the only measure here) end up in Chemical, and the fairly low quality Cadet end up in Infantry or MI.
Finally, if a Cadet got one of their top two choices and signed an ADSO, they are charged the ADSO. I believe that holds true regardless of how they got the branch (DABM or other process).
In answer to your question, how does QM/CM get you when it's not your choice? It generally doesn't unless you're low on the OML and you get matched into it in the DA Branching Model in the very last step (which doesn't take major into account, just OML position). Not every branch gets everyone they want, and it's still possible to be a Signal guy with a history degree or an Infantry guy with a degree in mechanical engineering. That's not the point-the point is to match those majors who WANT those branches. Computer guys tend to want Signal, engineers tend to want technical fields, all other things being equal.
Last edited by GeorgiaTransplant; 03-15-2015 at 10:01 AM..
Your coworkers son is in a different category. Citadel grads can get active regardless of major or GPA, as can any graduate of one of the 6 senior military colleges (Citadel, Texas A&M, North Georgia, V. Tech, VMI, Norwich). Grades matter because of how they put you on the OML, which will impact his branching chances.
It's very different now, and major CAN matter if you want a certain branch. By the way, Finance is consistently one of the earliest branches to fill up (the only branches that have consistently higher competition to get into are IN, MS, AV)-but it's that way because it's so small. The ones that want it know they want it.
It's almost unrecognizable from our days. I lived through the same process you did with the top 6 and have to put two combat arms, etc., etc., and it was voodoo to us how branching worked, but that’s not how it works anymore. Cadets tend to be all over the map on their understanding, due to both cadre limitations and personalities, and Cadet personalities-they hear what they want to hear and filter things that aren’t helpful to what they want.
Branching process is briefed at LDAC, it’s supposed to be briefed on campus, and at LDAC, the branch day is kind of a big production, and the algorithm is available-but once a Cadet decides they ‘want’ a branch, they will tend to block out anything else that conflicts with their getting that branch.
The process changes every year, so what’s true below may have changed in the last 1-2 years, but in general, it’s trying to fine-tune the process to get people sorted where they want to go within reason.
In a very short form, the algorithm is:
1) Every accessions branch gets a certain number of active allocations
2) Cadets get a number of points for performance-GPA, LDAC, PMS ranking, PT test, extracurriculars, etc.
3) Cadets are racked and stacked. There is a #1, there is a #5000 (or so). They no longer get told where they are before the accessions process-they must infer from their performance. Between our accessions and today, there was a LONG period where they WERE told exactly where they stood on the national OML.
4) Two preference sheets filled out: active, guard, reserve, ed delay is #1, #2 is branch preference for active.
5) Cadets decide if they are willing to risk an Active Duty Obligation (3-year additional commitment) for getting one of (I think 3?) branches of choice. It’s not a certainty it will be granted or exercised. It’s like buying insurance, really.
6) Guard or reserve contracts go guard or reserve. Almost never approved to 'revoke' a GRFD contract.
7) HERE IS WHERE SPECIAL PROGRAMS COME INTO PLAY. If you have one of the ‘desired’ majors for a branch, signed an ADSO, have a minimum GPA, and put that branch as your #1 choice, you receive active duty and the specified branch. Each branch that is considering it-last year, SC, OD, CM, AD, EN, QM-has a different list of qualifying majors. If you get one of these slots, that is removed from the available branch slots.
This is the part that I think you’re still trying to wrap your head around. Yes, major *Can* matter now. Generally, a GPA of 3.2+ is somewhat competitive for active duty. Other things can overcome a lower GPA, but if you have a 2.8, you’re generally going to be out of luck-but the case I’m talking about was a computer science major with a 2.8, who asked for Signal, and got active duty. One of his peers who had a 3.3 in Criminal Justice with similar extracurriculars and OML standing didn’t get active, which really brought it home how much this concept affects the process if you are in one of the desired majors (and it's mostly engineering, unsurprisingly).
8) Order of merit cutoff now established based on slots left and cadets left on list (without a branch from special programs) are looked at. Anybody left on list above cutoff who wants active gets it, plus any senior military college graduate (Citadel, Texas A&M, etc.) who wants it and whose PMS endorses. Remainder get sorted into guard and reserve based on preference.
9) Educational delay considered for those on active list who ask for it. Anyone can ask for ed delay, but I don’t believe guard/reserve get it granted.
Now we get to branches for those who didn’t get their branch through special programs:
1) The first step is ‘prebranching’. Cadets say whether they want to be considered for their top 1, 2, or 3 prebranch choices-and there are algorithmic reasons why you might only put one.
2) In prebranching, each *branch* is filled to 40% of allocations-so for instance, if Armor had 100 slots, 40 of those slots would get a name put against them.
3) The next 15% of allocations are filled cadets in prebranching who signed an ADSO. So at MOST, 55% of any branch is filled up.
Now that prebranching is over, it's on to 'branching'.
4) ALL remaining branch slots (the last 45%) and ALL remaining Cadets who received active and don’t have a branch from special programs or the previous processes go into the ‘DA Branch Model’ (DABM), which is an algorithmic process that sorts Cadets by the 3 factors of-quality (measured by OML position), desired branch (the higher the better), and diversity (sex, ethnicity). This is how quality gets distributed across force. That is how you see the fairly high quality Cadet (again, OML is the only measure here) end up in Chemical, and the fairly low quality Cadet end up in Infantry or MI.
Finally, if a Cadet got one of their top two choices and signed an ADSO, they are charged the ADSO. I believe that holds true regardless of how they got the branch (DABM or other process).
In answer to your question, how does QM/CM get you when it's not your choice? It generally doesn't unless you're low on the OML and you get matched into it in the DA Branching Model in the very last step (which doesn't take major into account, just OML position). Not every branch gets everyone they want, and it's still possible to be a Signal guy with a history degree or an Infantry guy with a degree in mechanical engineering. That's not the point-the point is to match those majors who WANT those branches. Computer guys tend to want Signal, engineers tend to want technical fields, all other things being equal.
Well now I why my friend's son's experience was so similar to mine-- I graduated from Norwich. Admittedly, I wasn't aware the senior military colleges had different standards. Either that wasn't the case when I was in college or the department decided it was better to not let us know. I do remember we all seemed to get one of our top 2 choices. One of my good friends, who is now SF, was branched AG with a branch detail to CM. I've never seen anyone else have such a strange branch detail alignment. In fact, I've only ever seen the detailed branch be combat arms.
I knew it was getting more competitive today but I never saw a guy/gal with a GPA above 3.0 not make the cut line for active duty. Of course we were growing back when I was commissioned (93) compared to today and a shrinking Army. Glad I'm retiring in a few months!
Well now I why my friend's son's experience was so similar to mine-- I graduated from Norwich. Admittedly, I wasn't aware the senior military colleges had different standards. Either that wasn't the case when I was in college or the department decided it was better to not let us know. I do remember we all seemed to get one of our top 2 choices. One of my good friends, who is now SF, was branched AG with a branch detail to CM. I've never seen anyone else have such a strange branch detail alignment. In fact, I've only ever seen the detailed branch be combat arms.
I knew it was getting more competitive today but I never saw a guy/gal with a GPA above 3.0 not make the cut line for active duty. Of course we were growing back when I was commissioned (93) compared to today and a shrinking Army. Glad I'm retiring in a few months!
No idea if it was the same back then (with senior military colleges). The SMCs are *definitely* treated differently for accessions at least in recent years. And probably rightly so.
The experience of a VMI or Norwich Cadet compared to a standard Cadet is night and day; neither is "better", but it's very different.
Well I never served but my late father did.He was a chief master sargent and served from 1942 to 1975 in the AirForce that's 33 years. He got invovled in intelligence work during WW2 and stayed with it throughout his career. I guess you have to decide what you want to do in the military first.Then after you figure that out,then you can look into each banch of military service and see which one offers what you want.
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