Will Minneapolis ever see 500,000 again? (St. Paul: centers, estimated, transit)

[uptown_urbanist]

RE: Uptown: Rainbow has pretty good prices on day-to-day items, and when you shop the sales the drugstores can have good deals on things; Kitchen Window is great for kitchen stuff (and does have some affordable stuff mixed in with the high-end gadgets). It IS true that it's tough to find, say, affordable towels, or cheap underwear, or a TV, and there's been a lot of talk in recent years about whether or not a smaller, urban footprint Target or Target-type store would be good for Uptown. (right now those living in Uptown without a car who want the stuff sold at a Target can either go to the Kmart on Nicollet, the Target downtown (not very far for some parts of the neighborhood) or the Target in SLP. The hardware stores sell a lot of stuff, too -- the one on Hennepin seems pretty well-geared towards the needs of neighborhood residents (and have cheap decent cooking gear, scales, and all those sorts of things) and have competitive prices. Actually, what I think Uptown is most lacking (and used to have in the past) is a thrift store. There are lots of second-hand clothing stores, but no Value Village or equivalent. In any case, yes, no matter where one lives I think proximity to a decent grocery store is mandatory before I'd consider that neighborhood to be "walkable" when using the term in the sense of "can you fulfill daily needs on foot" kind of walkability. I don't think a grocery store of some type by itself is enough to help a location meet the walkability criteria, but not having one within walking distance strikes a neighborhood from the "walkable for daily needs" category.

I agree that there is a huge difference between being somewhat walkable and being able to get by without a car. I think there are very few places in the metro area (including in the city) where it would be "very easy" to live without a car, although clearly people are doing it even in areas that aren't optimal. We should be giving credit to those places that are making pedestrian improvements (which a lot of local suburbs are).

[QuietBlue]

Originally Posted by northsub

Frankly, I also don't understand where people who live in an area like Uptown shop for day-to-day items. If you wanted toilet paper or Kleenex or cleaning supplies, where would you go? Do people just pay the convenience markups (and have limited selection) for toilet paper at some corner market or Walgreens everytime they get toilet paper? Or do you just buy all of this stuff at Rainbow/Kowalski's/Lunds? In which case, wouldn't there be similar walkability to everyday things anywhere that has a grocery store? I also would have similar questions about things that aren't as common, but together one might be looking for fairly frequently: electronics, toaster, coffee pot, a scale, kitchen utensils (I guess I'm trying to figure out where people shop for the things that would be in a Target).

Pretty much everyone I know who lives in Minneapolis or St. Paul drives to the nearest Target or Wal-Mart for stuff like that, either one in the cities proper or in an inner suburb (Richfield or Edina on the south side, the Quarry on the NE side, etc).

[QuietBlue]

Originally Posted by Cruz Azul Guy

Yeah, because I just see people getting in line to live without a car in the heart of Burnsville and in Apple Valley off of 42....anybody who isn't car dependant knows that would be awful. Those are definitely both examples of flaws in the walkscore formula. Besides the multi-lane roads you'd be crossing all the time and the lack of accessibility and sidewalks and prevalance of parking lots and other car dependant characteristics around, the larger problem is the lack of public transportation. Where we are in South Minneapolis there is a major bus route right outside our door where we can catch a bus between 7-30 minutes at any hour of the day. Even if you lived near a transit hub in Apple Valley for instance buses there practically don't run outside of weekly rush hour. It'd be completely impractical to live there without a car.

There are actually quite a few people who live in those areas who don't have cars or who have limited access to one (i.e. a one-car household where multiple people work). Both of those areas have a lot of apartments and rental condos/townhomes nearby. We don't all live in big houses and drive shiny SUVs out here; there are a lot more people of limited means in the suburbs than people realize. And there are local circulators that run throughout the day as well -- they don't run as often as they should, nor as early and late, but it's not just during rush hours the way a lot of people think it is. Plus there are a lot of sidewalks in that area, which admittedly isn't the case in all of Burnsville or Apple Valley.

I used that area for a lot of my needs when I lived without a car here in Eagan for about a year while I saved up to buy one. Is it optimal? No, but I made it work, and it wouldn't have been much different in many parts of Minneapolis or St. Paul either. I agree with uptown_urbanist that there aren't that many places in the Twin Cities, even in Minneapolis or St. Paul, where one can easily get by without a car. In most places, it's a question of how much one is willing to make it work.

[Minnesota Spring]

Originally Posted by ManBearPig1

Drivers downtown actually respect pedestrians because they expect them to be there -- at least more so than drivers in the suburbs. Just like I feel safer walking in Manhattan than in Minneapolis because there's a greater respect given to the pedestrian by drivers, despite there be more drivers on the road.

Except for the cab drivers. They don't stop for anyone. I think you have to be classified as clinically insane to become a NYC cab driver!

[green_mariner]

Will Mpls ever go back to 500.000? It depends. Is there enough room in the city to build more homes? What can be done to attract more people to the city(or to keep college graduates in the city)?

[ManBearPig1]

Originally Posted by northsub

Frankly, I also don't understand where people who live in an area like Uptown shop for day-to-day items. If you wanted toilet paper or Kleenex or cleaning supplies, where would you go? Do people just pay the convenience markups (and have limited selection) for toilet paper at some corner market or Walgreens everytime they get toilet paper? Or do you just buy all of this stuff at Rainbow/Kowalski's/Lunds? In which case, wouldn't there be similar walkability to everyday things anywhere that has a grocery store? I also would have similar questions about things that aren't as common, but together one might be looking for fairly frequently: electronics, toaster, coffee pot, a scale, kitchen utensils (I guess I'm trying to figure out where people shop for the things that would be in a Target).

I live in uptown. Here's where I'd go for those things:

toilet paper: Rainbow
Kleenex: Rainbow
cleaning supplies: Rainbow or Ace Hardware
electronics: Amazon
toaster: Amazon
coffee pot: Amazon
scale: Amazon
utensils: Rainbow, downtown Target, or Amazon
things I could buy at Target: downtown Target or, most likely, Amazon

[green_mariner]

http://geology.com/satellite/cities/...lite-image.jpg

I have this satellite map of the Twin Cities. I'm thinking it could be helpful in terms of the topic of Minneapolis going back to 500,000 residents. One should think about space.

[pzrOrange]

the space and infrastructure is one thing, but what about the ever-increasing taxes? the new Vikings stadium, anyone? If the city of Minneapolis continues to tax its residents into oblivion, I am not sure where they would find another 100K residents who would want to live there vs nearest suburbs.

[spectre000]

City & Towns Totals: Vintage 2011 - U.S Census Bureau

Here is the latest census estimates. In 2011 Minneapolis grew by 5,000, and St. Paul by 3,000 to 387k and 288k respectively.

The populations of cities like Minneapolis and St. Paul can fluctuate greatly on a year to year basis. But still good signs that the twin cities grew last year. I think both cities have good chances to pass 400k and 300k respectively by the next census. Fill the vacant houses, new high density development in the downtowns and along the CCLRT, the Ford site, etc.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by spectre000

City & Towns Totals: Vintage 2011 - U.S Census Bureau

Here is the latest census estimates. In 2011 Minneapolis grew by 5,000, and St. Paul by 3,000 to 387k and 288k respectively.

The populations of cities like Minneapolis and St. Paul can fluctuate greatly on a year to year basis. But still good signs that the twin cities grew last year. I think both cities have good chances to pass 400k and 300k respectively by the next census. Fill the vacant houses, new high density development in the downtowns and along the CCLRT, the Ford site, etc.

Nice to see the urban centers growing. Hey, the City of Atlanta is only 432,427. Maybe Minneapolis can catch it by itself!