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+1 to Slig's comments. I went to a "low-income" high school and my parents taught in many low-income schools. Besides being more prepared for the real world and desired by colleges looking for students that don't fit the typical upper-middle class suburban mold, I have many classmates (and my parents have many former students) who have been very successful in their collegiate (including many Ivies and prestigious fellowships) and professional lives who came from all socioeconomic backgrounds. I also know more teachers than persons in any other profession, and the people I know working in more socioeconomically diverse environments almost always care more about their students/jobs than those working in upper middle class suburbs. I would NEVER send my kids to a snotty suburban school no matter what the situation.
+1 to Slig's comments. I went to a "low-income" high school and my parents taught in many low-income schools. Besides being more prepared for the real world and desired by colleges looking for students that don't fit the typical upper-middle class suburban mold, I have many classmates (and my parents have many former students) who have been very successful in their collegiate (including many Ivies and prestigious fellowships) and professional lives who came from all socioeconomic backgrounds. I also know more teachers than persons in any other profession, and the people I know working in more socioeconomically diverse environments almost always care more about their students/jobs than those working in upper middle class suburbs. I would NEVER send my kids to a snotty suburban school no matter what the situation.
I also agree. I don't necessarily have a problem with wealthy suburban schools (although would be less thrilled about sending my kids there, and do value socioeconomic diversity), but I wish there was some way to identify percentage of parents who hold elitist views -- some way to figure out what percentage of parents are raising kids indoctrinated in the belief that low-income kids are to be feared and despised, for example. That belief system goes so totally against my values system, and I would hate for my kid to be in an environment where that view was the norm. Unfortunately I don't know the easiest way to filter for that, although I do think that realistically you're more likely to encounter it in a school where the kids all draw from a highly segregated wealthy area, and the school's overall demographics are equally highly segregated. (District 196, I know, got in some trouble in the past five years or so for its highly segregated schools within the district) It's probably a bit of chicken-and-egg situation: the kids live in a bubble and spend their lives around people from the same socioeconomic class and so don't know any better, and the demographics of the school in turn attract parents who hold such segregationist values. (to be clear, I don't think all parents of kids who live in highly segregated school zones are elitist, but those schools by their very nature would attract the elitist parents -- i.e. those who believe that a handful of "low-income" kids will somehow contaminate their own children, or that poverty or simply a lower family income is somehow contagious.)
197 by far! I grew up there and alot of the kids from 196 tend to be more roudy, behavioral probs, goths, punks, drama queens, etc. and the schools tend to have more issues with the kids than 197. I highly recommend Pinewood Elementary. Dakota Hills middle school and the highschool have fantastic ratings! Super teachers too.
I also agree. I don't necessarily have a problem with wealthy suburban schools (although would be less thrilled about sending my kids there, and do value socioeconomic diversity), but I wish there was some way to identify percentage of parents who hold elitist views -- some way to figure out what percentage of parents are raising kids indoctrinated in the belief that low-income kids are to be feared and despised, for example. That belief system goes so totally against my values system, and I would hate for my kid to be in an environment where that view was the norm. Unfortunately I don't know the easiest way to filter for that, although I do think that realistically you're more likely to encounter it in a school where the kids all draw from a highly segregated wealthy area, and the school's overall demographics are equally highly segregated. (District 196, I know, got in some trouble in the past five years or so for its highly segregated schools within the district) It's probably a bit of chicken-and-egg situation: the kids live in a bubble and spend their lives around people from the same socioeconomic class and so don't know any better, and the demographics of the school in turn attract parents who hold such segregationist values. (to be clear, I don't think all parents of kids who live in highly segregated school zones are elitist, but those schools by their very nature would attract the elitist parents -- i.e. those who believe that a handful of "low-income" kids will somehow contaminate their own children, or that poverty or simply a lower family income is somehow contagious.)
Just goes to show you that you are clueless about the suburban schools. There is plenty of economic ) diversity in the suburban schools, more so I would say then the inner city schools-that are predominately low to lower middle class students based on the free and reduced lunch statistics from the schools. How is that more economically diverse than the suburban schools that have a broad range of ALL economic classes, all being well represented. There are still low income students in Wayzata and Edina. No one thinks that their child will be "contaminated" and how ignorant of you to say so. What we DON'T want is for 80%+ of the other students in the school not to give a crap about getting a good education and the resources, time and energy of the school system going toward those students. No one thinks poverty is contagious. What we do want is a strong school system with parents that want a good education for their kids-income/class doesn't matter in that one bit.
Since you want to be surrounded by the "lower incomes" because that is a good thing for your child-are you sending your son to North??
Just goes to show you that you are clueless about the suburban schools. There is plenty of economic ) diversity in the suburban schools, more so I would say then the inner city schools-that are predominately low to lower middle class students based on the free and reduced lunch statistics from the schools. How is that more economically diverse than the suburban schools that have a broad range of ALL economic classes, all being well represented. There are still low income students in Wayzata and Edina. No one thinks that their child will be "contaminated" and how ignorant of you to say so. What we DON'T want is for 80%+ of the other students in the school not to give a crap about getting a good education and the resources, time and energy of the school system going toward those students. No one thinks poverty is contagious. What we do want is a strong school system with parents that want a good education for their kids-income/class doesn't matter in that one bit.
Since you want to be surrounded by the "lower incomes" because that is a good thing for your child-are you sending your son to North??
Actually, I've volunteered in the suburban schools. My reference was not to "suburban schools" in general -- OBVIOUSLY one cannot make sweeping statements about all schools in the suburbs, as there's a huge range. Even within districts there are often extreme variations between schools, including on the diversity front; the state tracks that sort of thing. Since when do you get to speak for "we"? Of COURSE everyone wants a strong school system with involved parents, but you're the one who was specifically suggesting that a school with fewer poor kids equals a better school. You've also previously made negative comments about some of the lower-income housing in Rosemount and Apple Valley, and about people who ride buses. In any case, here's your quote:
"The biggest advantage Sibley has going for it is that it is a pretty upper middle class/upper class high school with a VERY small lower income population"
This is EXACTLY the kind of opinion that I find to be offensive. You're not talking about a school where 80% of the kids are low-income here. Kind of hard to reconcile a statement like that (which is pretty blatant) with the statement that "income/class doesn't matter one bit." So which is it -- you care about income, or you don't?
And, for that matter, I don't like that there are schools in the Twin Cities (and they are no longer split along nice easy city/suburban lines) that are disproportionately low-income. That's also a MAJOR problem, and we should be upset about it. That's why all schools should be doing their part, and districts should be attempting to make sure that their kids aren't shuttled into segregated schools. (which is exactly what District 196 was doing a few years with its weird school boundaries that led to highly segregated schools within the district; I assume they're not doing that now, as they did get warned about it by the state.)
What I support, and what the educational research out there supports, is that economically DIVERSE schools are a good thing. I don't want to send my kid to a school where all the kids are from our same background. I don't think it's healthy for kids, or for society, to have segregated schools. Period. That goes for segregated rich kids OR poor kids. It goes against my fundamental belief system to think that it's desirable to have a hyper-segregated society. This is America, for goodness sake, not some third-world country.
In any case, I know better than to try to make this into some fake city versus suburb debate. It's not even about rich suburbs versus poor suburbs. It's about schools that have a high percentage of elitist parents who hold viewpoints I find to be offensive. I think those parents are disproportionately found at wealthy schools, but if it was a simple matter of looking at economic level of the parents it would make it a lot easier to figure out which schools have an overall "culture" that fits with my values. That can vary greatly by school -- you'll find that at work even in Edina. Some schools there have different overall vibes than others, and the people I know with kids in Edina greatly prefer the schools that have more diversity, which in their case seems to have correlated with a lower percentage of snobby parents. And caring about diversity is also not something that falls along socioeconomic class; parents of all economic levels hold that value. Obviously not ALL do, however, I would prefer if my child attended a school where there were many others who believed in valuing children for their own sake, and did not measure them or hold preconceived notions based upon their parents' paycheck. Based on your repeated comments on this forum I do think that our values are vastly different, but I also would certainly never assume that your values are representative of all parents at your school.
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 06-26-2011 at 12:44 PM..
And in any case, doesn't Sibley have the largest percentage of low-income students out of the three high schools you compared? (24% at Sibley -- which I do think counts as diverse -- versus 7% at both Eastview and Eagan)?
(and furthermore, how does one make a jump from what I said to suggesting that 80% of the kids at any of these schools are living in poverty, even if one WERE to assume that all lower-income kids didn't "care a crap" about school?)
Although of course while this doesn't really need to be said, I'd prefer not to see ANY kids having to live in poverty.
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 06-26-2011 at 01:20 PM..
197 by far! I grew up there and alot of the kids from 196 tend to be more roudy, behavioral probs, goths, punks, drama queens, etc. and the schools tend to have more issues with the kids than 197. I highly recommend Pinewood Elementary. Dakota Hills middle school and the highschool have fantastic ratings! Super teachers too.
I am confused by this post. Are you saying you prefer district 197? The schools you listed are in district 196, Pinewood, Dakota Hills are Eagan, 196 schools.
I am confused by this post. Are you saying you prefer district 197? The schools you listed are in district 196, Pinewood, Dakota Hills are Eagan, 196 schools.
Look at some of her other absurd posts, rosemarie87 is a troll.
Since you want to be surrounded by the "lower incomes" because that is a good thing for your child-are you sending your son to North??
No, as North actually won't exist in its current form when my (very near future) kid attends high school, but we do intend to send him or her to Henry High which (unlike North) is immediately adjacent to/in our neighborhood. Henry currently has a high population of students receiving free/reduced lunch, and is majority nonwhite. Does this count Golfgal? And it's so nice of you to single out North repeatedly in your posts- kicking a downtrodden school in the teeth while it's down shows great character, and I'm sure all of the students, families, and community members that are heartbroken about recent decisions surrounding North really appreciate your kindness/sympathy.
I should make a disclaimer about my previous posts- I know nothing about the student bodies at 196 or 197 schools, and I realized that my posts implied that they are "snotty"/snobbish schools which may or may not be the case. Based on personal experience, I will likely not ever send my kids to a suburban school district- especially one that's overwhelmingly white/middle to upper middle class, as these schools are the ones that tend to be breeding grounds for snobbishness/elitist attitudes, and I think these poor character traits are far more likely to rub off on a kid through group mentality than anything else. And although again, I am not saying anything about 196/197 schools, because all I know of them is what I have heard through this board, in news articles (not necessarily positive- the ones that come to mind relate to 196's budget woes), and from one family we're friends with whose kids attend school there. But if some of the comments on this board are any indicator, I would be a little worried about the students in the districts' attitudes.
Also GG- we get it. There's probably not a lot of people out there that would choose to move to a place like Rosemount- I mean, the adjacency to Flint Hills (and the resulting high incidences of child asthma) and long commutes to the city cores alone are just two reasons- unless they were under some wild impression that the educational system there far outshone any of the local/surrounding districts, but especially those districts that have great housing stock, walkability/visual appeal, and that are located within or adjacent to the city cores- we certainly wouldn't want a threat like good educational reputation in these areas jeopardizing the already-shaky viability of far-flung suburban areas that are progressively being viewed as less relevant/appealing by today's standards.
I don't post a lot but I look through the boards. I feel like there is so much back and forth between a couple of people about city vs suburban life (schools, lifestyle,etc)that the main question people are trying to get an answer for is lost in the mess.
I am a parent with children in 196. Yes, you will find snobbish kids in this district. My children have noticed in middle school that Eagan and the surrounding areas have a lot of wealth. But these are large schools so you will find a variety of people. My kids have made wonderful friends that are the furthest thing from snobby.
As far as budget woes I believe that 196 has faired quite well. We know several families in the Lakeville schools and they had large increases in their athletic fees for next year, ours went up 10 dollars for the high school sports. I believe you hear so much about 196 because it is one of the largest districts in the state. Every district has had to deal with budget issues in the past couple of years.
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