Upscale luxury retail (Minneapolis, Bloomington, Eagan: condos, neighborhoods, theater)

[uptown_urbanist]

I don't know -- I was in Neimans today, and their casual clothes are still at a pretty high price point, or at least their low-end items are what passes for the middle-point at other TC department stores. I know that stores like Macy's sell the more expensive stuff, too, (and no, I'm not talking the high-end items, but just the world of $150 sweaters, $130 dresses, and $200 jeans) but apparently not enough of them shopping here in MN, or perhaps just not enough of them to make up for the lack of spending on bigger ticket items. And while I don't know what the numbers look like for profit margins, etc., I think that, as a generalization, many Minnesotans aren't willing to pay the premium for the higher-end designer lines, as at some point you're paying for name, not quality. I know there has been speculation that they'd do better at the Mall of America. Could be. At least there they'd also have all the tourists.

There may also be brand loyalty, although the names of our stores have changed over time with all the changes in ownership. This is former Dayton's territory, and I think a lot of people have transferred their loyalty over to Macy's.

[GBCommenter]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

I know there has been speculation that they'd do better at the Mall of America. Could be. At least there they'd also have all the tourists.

There may also be brand loyalty, although the names of our stores have changed over time with all the changes in ownership. This is former Dayton's territory, and I think a lot of people have transferred their loyalty over to Macy's.

Interesting points, UU - especially on MOA. I've always heard the chicken-egg debate on MOA regarding truly high-end stores. I think there is at least the perception the majority of MOA shoppers are regional (which means that darn Lutheran DNA comes to light). The question becomes do you "build it and they will come" as in put in the big buck stores and wait for the big buck customers to fly in, or do the stores wait for the big buck customers to shop MOA and then meet the demand?

There's also the deeply ingrained culture of being Dayton's territory. Going to Macy's has probably diluted it some, but still enough connection to keep Macy's afloat - even if only a shadow of former Dayton's glory.

[Goober13]

Location is the problem with Neiman Marcus and Saks. When MOA was built everyone was so concerned about it cannibalizing other shopping centers. If you look at the models in other major cities, upscale stores are all located in the busiest mall that attracts out of town tourists. That would be MOA.

Downtown is not where the tourists think of when they want to shop. MOA is that destination, and it should have been the mall that has the best shopping that there is to offer.

Look at Union Square in San Francisco, Biltmore and Fashion Square in Phoenix/Scottsdale, Houston Galleria in Houston, San Antonio, and Austin, Fashion Show in Las Vegas, Buckhead area in Atlanta, Troy in the Detroit area, just to name a few. When you go to these cities you will gravitate to the best mall in town, and more cosmopolitan and well heeled customers are going to do just that.

Unless you are in San Francisco or Manhattan, the downtown area just isn't going to pull the customer base and out of town travelers needed.

MOA should have incorporated much more upscale shopping in there from the beginning. Nordstrom in MOA is stocked comparably to other locations in high end malls. It should have high end retail side by side with it.

Bloomingdales since it is owned by Macy's now is not as good as it used to be before they took over. Look at the merchandise selection in the former MOA store and compare it to other locations in California and Chicago. It's their own fault they failed.

Some may say MOA is a family destination, and that having too much of an upscale facade would intimidate rural shoppers who come into town with the kids for amusement. I disagree. Most major malls with upscale teneants also have a large mix of middle of the road stores as well.

Minneapolis/St Paul is the coldest major city in the country. If the upscale stores factored that into the merchandise selection that could have made a difference too. Chicago is not as cold as the Twin Cities. Women can't wear the heels year round like in other cities.

Upscale shopping must be in the #1 tourist destination mall of any city. If it is not there it will fail, unless you are in a larger city with twice the population of the Twin Cities or more, that can support more than one upscale shopping destination.

Neiman Marcus NEVER closes stores. Saks has closed stores in cities such as Denver, Portland, and San Diego. They just need to adjust their merchandise selection in less pretentious cities to make in more conservatively upscale and less trendy. Look at the other retail stores like Polo that closed downtown. The stores in Edina's Galleria such as Tiffanys, Crate and Barrel, and Louis Vuitton should be in MOA.

Building a mall like MOA in an area of only 3.5 million people, is going to force some other malls to close, or lose business. MOA is where the out of town money goes. With 35+ million shoppers per year, that is where the best stores should have been.

[Pisces69]

I'm kinda surprised Southdale is still in the game, since MOA is so close by and has more stores.

[roselily]

A huge part of it is downtown is NOT a shopping destination- folks don't want to deal with paying for parking, etc, especially when there aren't many stores there to begin with. When I worked at Daytons it was always dead on the weekends and after 6pm- the vast majority of sales was the lunch hour crowd.

Bloomingdale's buyers never understood Minnesota's seasons and buying habits. Nordstrom gets it much better, but they have local buyers. Daytons got it when it was still locally owned, as Macy's they have lost their edge.

ETA: I just realized I repeated what Goober13 said better than I.

[minneapolis612]

I have been seeing some more upscale "Boutique" style mens shops popping up downtown. Martin Patrick in the North Loop neighborhood is my new favorite. Not sure how long it will last though.

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by minneapolis612

I have been seeing some more upscale "Boutique" style mens shops popping up downtown. Martin Patrick in the North Loop neighborhood is my new favorite. Not sure how long it will last though.

If there's a market in the Twin Cities, downtown is probably a good location; I would imagine that many in their target audience already live downtown, work there, or frequent the restaurants in areas like the North Loop already, or don't mind destination shopping.

[Goober13]

Originally Posted by roselily

A huge part of it is downtown is NOT a shopping destination- folks don't want to deal with paying for parking, etc, especially when there aren't many stores there to begin with.

This is well said. Local officials are so consumed with keeping downtown alive as a shopping destination when it is too inconvenient for people to shop there when other choices exist.

I go back and forth there from Phoenix a lot and besides MOA, the rest of the malls there are seriously lacking and obsolete. Are the malls in Southdale,Galleria, Eden Prairie and Maplewood needed? Did Brookdale have to become a ghost town? That mall could have been the hub of the northern suburbs instead of everything moving to Maple Grove. Was downtown shopping ever needed? In San Francisco and Manhattan people walk and take the subways and public transportation. There is A LOT to offer to drive suburbanites downtown. Most cities lack that.

I shop in all types of stores, and enjoy buying shirts and trendy types of items at Neiman Marcus and Saks. Just to go to Neiman Marcus you have to make a special trip. And they close early and on Sundays. Sunday is the day I have time to shop. Their mall stores are open 7 days although they may close earlier than the other stores. I like to go to one large hustle and bustle mall where the best stocked stores are, to do my shopping. At Houston Galleria you can do that. Not in the Twin Cities.

Macys in MOA is not their best store. Southdale is. Why is their best store not in MOA? Why is Sears in that type of mall?

I don't feel local officials get it. They are trying to justify keeping every local shopping venue alive. Nordstrom is licking their lips trying to bring in the higher end merchandise that Macys is afraid to stock, and that the lack of high end retail in MOA is making available to them.

MOA could be a world class shopping destination, but lacking the upscale major stores there due to bickering amongst other local officials who are trying to keep terminally ill shopping areas alive, has cost them that designation IMO.

[uptown_urbanist]

^ Keep in mind that the city of Minneapolis has more than 380,000 residents. Downtown has around 160,000 employees. I believe there are around 35,000 people living downtown these days, with more units built as we speak. Now granted, not all of those people are shopping at Neiman Marcus, specifically, but as far as shopping goes, there's certainly a broad base of people who may well find downtown to be closer and more convenient than trekking out to a mall. And many of the downtown residents have good salaries and significant buying power. Right now there's not a lot to offer them, but I wouldn't be so quick to declare shopping downtown dead. Especially since things downtown really seem to be taking off recently (new grocery stores, lots of new residents with money to spend locally, etc.).

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

^ Keep in mind that the city of Minneapolis has more than 380,000 residents. Downtown has around 160,000 employees. I believe there are around 35,000 people living downtown these days, with more units built as we speak. Now granted, not all of those people are shopping at Neiman Marcus, specifically, but as far as shopping goes, there's certainly a broad base of people who may well find downtown to be closer and more convenient than trekking out to a mall. And many of the downtown residents have good salaries and significant buying power. Right now there's not a lot to offer them, but I wouldn't be so quick to declare shopping downtown dead. Especially since things downtown really seem to be taking off recently (new grocery stores, lots of new residents with money to spend locally, etc.).

Making downtown Minneapolis roughly the size of most suburbs for population, not enough to sustain a major shopping area, not even close. Neiman would have done much better at the MOA or even Southdale because THAT is where most of the high end shoppers frequent, not downtown. The general population in Bloomington, Edina, Eden Prairie and Eagan surpasses the number of workers in Downtown, and probably the average income is higher, at least in Edina, Eden Prairie and Eagan. Add in the rest of the southern suburbs and that chuck of the metro is multiple times the size of downtown.

Downtown is not easy for anyone unless you happen to live on the skyway system. Traffic is horrible, parking is difficult and the shop selection is poor. It's just as easy to hop the light rail and ride to the MOA where parking is free, shop selection is huge and stores and restaurants plentiful, especially non-bar oriented restaurants and open past 6:00.