How different are the Twin Cities vs. Montreal? (Minneapolis: live, food)

[Yvanung]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

maybe the under 21 party crowd lured by Montreal's younger drinking age. I knew people in New England who used to drive up for weekends for that reason.

Would there be people from outside the Northeast in that specific bracket that also go to Montreal for this purpose? From Minnesota even?

[ellysbelly]

Originally Posted by Yvanung

Would there be people from outside the Northeast in that specific bracket that also go to Montreal for this purpose? From Minnesota even?

Not sure that people from Minnesota go to Montreal on the regular; but, just anecdotally, when I was an undergrad at UNC, there were plenty of fraternities that road tripped to Montreal specifically and exclusively because of the much lower drinking age.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ellysbelly

As far as worldly and educated-- I might tend to disagree; it depends on which circles you run in. My friends here in MN have traveled more extensively AND tend to have better/more degrees and even more high powered jobs than those I know in Montreal. Montreal tends to be insular (even more so if you're a Francophone, as unless you're able to be educated in English, your options outside the confines of Quebec are highly limited, if not non-existent)--.

I assume you are talking about job opportunities in particular, and not life, culture and world-view in general.

Francophones in Montreal/Quebec aren't any more insular than anyone else, and certainly not any more insular than anglophones in Montreal/Quebec/Canada.

Francophones just have a different focus, which isn't as focused on the US (and maybe the UK) and more focused on continental Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and even Latin America. And not so much on Asia.

Your average literate Québécois francophone person is much more likely to have heard of and even to have read Paulo Coelho or Gabriel Garcia Marquez than his or her anglophone equivalent.

Trust me on that. I dwell on both sides.

[ellysbelly]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I assume you are talking about job opportunities in particular, and not life, culture and world-view in general.

Francophones in Montreal/Quebec aren't any more insular than anyone else, and certainly not any more insular than anglophones in Montreal/Quebec/Canada.

Francophones just have a different focus, which isn't as focused on the US (and maybe the UK) and more focused on continental Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and even Latin America. And not so much on Asia.

Your average literate Québécois francophone person is much more likely to have heard of and even to have read Paulo Coelho or Gabriel Garcia Marquez than his or her anglophone equivalent.

Trust me on that. I dwell on both sides.

The point is that, other than the most highly educated and literate Francophones (who are also fully bilingual in English); they are, by both language and/or ability to get work authorization-- very limited as to their options. If you're Anglo and/or fluent in English, all of Canada is open to you-- and getting status in the US is an option-- and, of course, Europe, too (more so if you're multilingual, of course). If you only speak French? Not many opps in North America and fewer options in Europe without at least one other language.

The culture in Quebec can be so virulently anti-English that it effectively insulates much of their population from exploring options anywhere other than Quebec. Ironically, many of those in power ensure that their own children are not only fluent in English but often send their kids to US boarding schools and universities.

It's also plausible, and I fully admit, that as an Anglo whose parents, friends, and family largely left Montreal in waves as the political climate turned (namely the elections in the mid--70s and the mid-90s) my view may very well be very biased and perhaps more than a bit embittered. The few Anglos who I know that remain have all strongly considered leaving; it seemingly has settled a bit since the last election, but there were a number of polls-- maybe from the Gazette?-- that stated something along the lines of over 50% of the Anglos in Quebec have strongly considered leaving within the last year. My family and friends who remain are either very elderly or, if they're younger, they stay to run or work in family-owned businesses that can't easily relocate.

Since my husband is a hockey coach; we, for about two seconds, considered returning to Montreal before we decided to relo to MN last year- (I was born in Montreal but raised mostly in South Florida; my grandmother still resides in Montreal-- my husband was both born and bred there, until his family relocated when he was in his early 20s to Toronto)- or I should say *I* considered it. The visceral "NO WAY" reaction from my husband when I asked if he wanted to consider it as an option was staggering. When asked, he emphatically stated that he didn't want our children to experience the same (anti-Anglo and often anti-Semitic) culture that he experienced growing up, especially in hockey circles, especially when he played in more rural areas, shockingly, even when he played in the QMJHL. Again, I fully realize that not ALL Québécois espouse the same vitriol, but there's enough that, as an Anglo, I'll sadly never return other as a tourist.

Sorry, didn't mean to veer this way off topic, but it touched a nerve, obviously.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ellysbelly

The point is that, other than the most highly educated and literate Francophones (who are also fully bilingual in English); they are, by both language and/or ability to get work authorization-- very limited as to their options. If you're Anglo and/or fluent in English, all of Canada is open to you-- and getting status in the US is an option-- and, of course, Europe, too (more so if you're multilingual, of course). If you only speak French? Not many opps in North America and fewer options in Europe without at least one other language.

The culture in Quebec can be so virulently anti-English that it effectively insulates much of their population from exploring options anywhere other than Quebec. Ironically, many of those in power ensure that their own children are not only fluent in English but often send their kids to US boarding schools and universities.


.

I largely agree, but ONLY if we're talking about career opportunities. (Which are very important I admit.)

BTW, it's a bit of an urban legend that the Québécois élite all (or mostly) send their kids to private English language schools. They're not Mexicans, you know. The vast majority of them send their kids to schools in Quebec, often private ones that teach primarily in French but also good second language English and third language Spanish. University choices for this demographic are all over the map just as they are for any group anywhere in the world.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ellysbelly

It's also plausible, and I fully admit, that as an Anglo whose parents, friends, and family largely left Montreal in waves as the political climate turned (namely the elections in the mid--70s and the mid-90s) my view may very well be very biased and perhaps more than a bit embittered. The few Anglos who I know that remain have all strongly considered leaving; it seemingly has settled a bit since the last election, but there were a number of polls-- maybe from the Gazette?-- that stated something along the lines of over 50% of the Anglos in Quebec have strongly considered leaving within the last year. My family and friends who remain are either very elderly or, if they're younger, they stay to run or work in family-owned businesses that can't easily relocate.

Since my husband is a hockey coach; we, for about two seconds, considered returning to Montreal before we decided to relo to MN last year- (I was born in Montreal but raised mostly in South Florida; my grandmother still resides in Montreal-- my husband was both born and bred there, until his family relocated when he was in his early 20s to Toronto)- or I should say *I* considered it. The visceral "NO WAY" reaction from my husband when I asked if he wanted to consider it as an option was staggering. When asked, he emphatically stated that he didn't want our children to experience the same (anti-Anglo and often anti-Semitic) culture that he experienced growing up, especially in hockey circles, especially when he played in more rural areas, shockingly, even when he played in the QMJHL. Again, I fully realize that not ALL Québécois espouse the same vitriol, but there's enough that, as an Anglo, I'll sadly never return other as a tourist.

Sorry, didn't mean to veer this way off topic, but it touched a nerve, obviously.

It didn't touch a nerve with me. I just find it presumptous and amusing that it's being suggested that in order to be non-insular one has to be a North American anglophone.

I didn't actually grow up in Quebec. I grew up in very anglophone milieus outside the province. Some of them non-diverse and some of them more diverse.

I actually found those places more stifling and conformist than Quebec is. Probably because the anglo North American culture is just such a huge juggernaut.

I live close enough to it and have enough family members and friends living the lifestyle across the river and beyond to see it hasn't changed. It's still pretty much like when I was young and one absolutelty HAD to watch Seinfeld, Cheers, South Park and the Simpsons, pay attention to the Super Bowl and March Madness, know Saturday Night Live sketches off by heart, etc.

Quebec culture is the mainstream culture here, and though it is fairly robust it's not strong to the point where the society isn't permeable to outside influences. Including those of Anglo North America of course.

To me, this makes for a more culturally balanced environment. To each his own I guess.

[Yvanung]

It's really the job market and the education in Quebec that seems to be insular. As far as Quebec is concerned, people have been more reluctant to relocate than people anywhere else in Canada.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec culture is the mainstream culture here, and though it is fairly robust it's not strong to the point where the society isn't permeable to outside influences. Including those of Anglo North America of course.

Said culture has shown signs of weakening or otherwise signs of weakness lately... or at least gave that impression.

[ellysbelly]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It didn't touch a nerve with me. I just find it presumptous and amusing that it's being suggested that in order to be non-insular one has to be a North American anglophone.

I didn't actually grow up in Quebec. I grew up in very anglophone milieus outside the province. Some of them non-diverse and some of them more diverse.

I actually found those places more stifling and conformist than Quebec is. Probably because the anglo North American culture is just such a huge juggernaut.

I live close enough to it and have enough family members and friends living the lifestyle across the river and beyond to see it hasn't changed. It's still pretty much like when I was young and one absolutelty HAD to watch Seinfeld, Cheers, South Park and the Simpsons, pay attention to the Super Bowl and March Madness, know Saturday Night Live sketches off by heart, etc.

Quebec culture is the mainstream culture here, and though it is fairly robust it's not strong to the point where the society isn't permeable to outside influences. Including those of Anglo North America of course.

To me, this makes for a more culturally balanced environment. To each his own I guess.

To clarify, I meant it touched MY nerve, not yours.

Since I've only lived in major-ish metropolitan areas: Montreal, Toronto, South Florida, Philadelphia, Research Triangle Park, NYC and, now, MN-- I haven't necessarily found those areas stifling nor insular (though there are always pockets of people who are both, even in the largest of metros).

It's not that it's insulated from outside culture-- nor did I mean to imply that one must be Anglo and/or North American in order to be non-insular (even spending a weekend in Europe shows you very quickly how insular North America tends to be). But what I meant, especially in light of the separatist culture (the word separatist says a lot, don't you think?!)-- that the Quebecois, by and large, fight the influence of any culture other than their own-- even by legislation (i.e. language board).

As I said and will repeat, it's not that all Francophones are any one way or the other; I was speaking more about the culture as a whole-- and, thankfully, the almost across the board rejection of the PQ in the last election shows that, at least for now, that the populace feels at though that the PQ doesn't speak for them.

But when English signage is banned, even when it's bilingual, and even in areas that are predominantly Anglo (Westmount, CSL, Hampstead)-- and when restaurants are fined and temporarily closed due to English decor (not even a menu or signage), there's xenophobia that's institutionalized and ingrained at a very deep level. Even for my husband, who is fully bilingual, went to French schools, etc-- it's not a culture that's particularly welcoming of Anglos-- and one that most of the Francophone populace can't (nor do they want to) escape from (not talking about the highly educated, I'm talking about the Average Joe-- or Average Jacques), mainly because the average non-Montrealer or non-Quebec City, or said another way, non-elite/non-educated Francophone can't speak English. At all. Nor do they seemingly want to. And that's fine, but that's-- by definition-- insular.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ellysbelly

the average non-Montrealer or non-Quebec City, or said another way, non-elite/non-educated Francophone can't speak English. At all. Nor do they seemingly want to. And that's fine, but that's-- by definition-- insular.

Perhaps. But I don't see that as fundamentally different from the crushing majority of anglophones on this continent who are perfectly satisfied with speaking only one language, and with exclusively dwelling in the culture produced by the anglosphere countries.

Even your average Jacques who speaks only French is exposed to some degree to music in English or American movies (to use just those two examples), all of which is a supplement over his primary culture which is francophone in origin.

To me that's at least a bit more enriching that consuming music in English only, and 100% Hollywood sitcoms and blockbusters.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Yvanung

Said culture has shown signs of weakening or otherwise signs of weakness lately... or at least gave that impression.

Not saying it's not true, but I'd like to hear more about this statement.