Following the rules (Minneapolis: sale, real estate, insurance)
Minneapolis - St. PaulTwin Cities
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Various threads/posts and personal situations, old and new, have fueled a burning question in the back of my mind that I am hoping you all can help put to rest.
I know about the list of repairs that warrant a permit according to the City of Mpls. Permits Overview (http://www.ci.mpls.mn.us/mdr/permits/ - broken link)
The permits are required to verify that work to a property has been done correctly. I've never heard of anyone complaining about a contractor pulling a permit for a job...after all, it's a form of insurance to the homeowner that the work they're paying for is done well. But everyone complains when they want to do a repair/renovation on their own property, themselves, and need to pull a permit that will cost, at minimum, $63.75. That confirmation that the work is done effectively just isn't as enticing, I guess.
So here's what I want to know...(all situations reference owner-done work)
What's the penalty for not pulling a permit on a project?
How exactly is this "monitored"? Meaning, how does the City actually know work has been done without a permit?
I know Mpls has the Truth in Sale of Housing where it's as though they conduct inspections for things that need to be updated/repaired prior to a sale...do they cross-reference visible updates to records of permits pulled? (e.g. New windows are visible but no record of permit issued)
Or is it more like, you install new windows one year (without a permit) and the next decide to install new siding and do pull permits for that...the inspector is obviously going to notice newer windows and see that there wasn't ever a permit pulled for that, right?
Those are all "bigger" more noticeable projects. What about a toilet replaced without a permit? Or a water heater?
What's the penalty for not pulling a permit on a project?
How exactly is this "monitored"? Meaning, how does the City actually know work has been done without a permit?
Things are pretty mysterious to me as well, but I'll take a crack at answering the above with my own experience. We didn't pull some permits on one of our renovations (gasp)- we had professional/ licensed contractors doing most things requiring a permit, but they were friends or family from out of town (thus not licensed to do work in Mpls) giving us a big discount. Well, let's just say the giant bright red dumpster parked in front of our house for a period of weeks was a tip-off to the Minneapolis inspections department, and we were soon cited for doing work that required permits. So we pulled permits, largely after all the work was completed (paid an additional fee, I think maybe double?), and we actually haven't had the inspections done to close the permits yet- combination of factors that have prevented that from happening - fear, apathy, not knowing how to fill out the forms, hard to track down inspectors or coordinate schedules, etc. We've gotten a number of notices, but we're not too worried about it at this point.
The problem with having "open permits", however, is that if we don't take care of them, when we go to sell the house, that pesky "Truth in Housing" report will list these open permits as not having been resolved. Additionally, we are now needing to pull permits for other projects, and I fear we may have to resolve the previous permits prior to gaining approval which will delay our plans (I'll let you know what happens). And I'm not sure, but I would assume that if you don't close permits, that tax-assessed value/ EMV doesn't go up (or up as much) despite the $$ that you dump into the project- I don't know, maybe a realtor could chime in on this.
On a sidenote- we have had licensed, professional contractors come in and do things (intall water heater etc) and were told that they would be pulling all necessary permits but we never saw any permit/ inspection, etc. and it doesn't show up on the City's website (but maybe they also couldn't pull because of our outstanding permits?). I think there needs to be a manual on this stuff.
Often the city doesn't know work was done without a permit until a county tax accessor comes through a house OR you go to sell your house and things are discovered that way. The big ones are things like adding plumbing or electrical if you don't have a permit because it can cause MAJOR issues when you go to sell. A realtor friend has told me stories of what happens when people try to sell a house with work done without a permit and it is a nightmare (having to rip out walls to have the work inspected or redone for one example).
Things are pretty mysterious to me as well, but I'll take a crack at answering the above with my own experience. We didn't pull some permits on one of our renovations (gasp)- we had professional/ licensed contractors doing most things requiring a permit, but they were friends or family from out of town (thus not licensed to do work in Mpls) giving us a big discount. Well, let's just say the giant bright red dumpster parked in front of our house for a period of weeks was a tip-off to the Minneapolis inspections department, and we were soon cited for doing work that required permits. So we pulled permits, largely after all the work was completed (paid an additional fee, I think maybe double?), and we actually haven't had the inspections done to close the permits yet- combination of factors that have prevented that from happening - fear, apathy, not knowing how to fill out the forms, hard to track down inspectors or coordinate schedules, etc. We've gotten a number of notices, but we're not too worried about it at this point.
The problem with having "open permits", however, is that if we don't take care of them, when we go to sell the house, that pesky "Truth in Housing" report will list these open permits as not having been resolved. Additionally, we are now needing to pull permits for other projects, and I fear we may have to resolve the previous permits prior to gaining approval which will delay our plans (I'll let you know what happens). And I'm not sure, but I would assume that if you don't close permits, that tax-assessed value/ EMV doesn't go up (or up as much) despite the $$ that you dump into the project- I don't know, maybe a realtor could chime in on this.
On a sidenote- we have had licensed, professional contractors come in and do things (intall water heater etc) and were told that they would be pulling all necessary permits but we never saw any permit/ inspection, etc. and it doesn't show up on the City's website (but maybe they also couldn't pull because of our outstanding permits?). I think there needs to be a manual on this stuff.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Camden. I agree, a manual would be helpful! lol I can't seem to find anything online (in general) that would explain this process to me...maybe my searches just aren't thorough enough or something.
Anyhow, when we bought our house it needed work done prior to closing and we dealt with licensed contractors for two situations so I get how they each pulled their permits and went through inspections, etc. I'm surprised the permits your contractors pulled don't show up on the TISH (on the City's website).
Well, we aren't planning any obvious renovations...no dumpsters necessary that could tip-off anyone. We might get a couple new windows but that isn't on the agenda soon. If anything, we have a toilet that is probably going to need to be replaced and it might be a good idea to get the water heater replaced, eventually. The latter requires replacing some pipes/upgrading them and so I'm nervous about anyone who isn't trained in that field working on it.
That's partly where this burning question stemmed from. A few months ago we thought we'd have to fix that then but it all ended up being something else after all. (Whew!) Anyway, the in-laws were over and adamant that permits were something we could easily avoid getting (they are working on a project without a permit at their home, their other son redid his *entire* bathroom, updated electricity, installed windows and something else I'm forgetting, all without permits--they're a family of excessive penny pinchers! My hubby's the only "normal" one...most of the time. ). It's just my nature to pull a permit if it says somewhere that I have to...even though I do think that (at least) $60 seems pretty steep for replacing a toilet...but I typically am not one to see problems with rules that are in place to protect me, inevitably. *shrug*
Often the city doesn't know work was done without a permit until a county tax accessor comes through a house OR you go to sell your house and things are discovered that way. The big ones are things like adding plumbing or electrical if you don't have a permit because it can cause MAJOR issues when you go to sell. A realtor friend has told me stories of what happens when people try to sell a house with work done without a permit and it is a nightmare (having to rip out walls to have the work inspected or redone for one example).
That really sounds like a nightmare!
Since both you and Camden brought up selling a home...I'll ask...How are projects discovered at that time and determined that they weren't permitted? (It sounds like such a dumb question...) What I mean is, take my bro-in-laws house for instance...he did that entire bathroom over again without permits...how, when they eventually go to sell, will anyone know the bathroom wasn't like that prior to them owning it? Unless there was a photo of the old bathroom in the real estate listing from when they purchased it...those do stay on file, right? Do county assessors take photos when they go through?
Since both you and Camden brought up selling a home...I'll ask...How are projects discovered at that time and determined that they weren't permitted? (It sounds like such a dumb question...) What I mean is, take my bro-in-laws house for instance...he did that entire bathroom over again without permits...how, when they eventually go to sell, will anyone know the bathroom wasn't like that prior to them owning it? Unless there was a photo of the old bathroom in the real estate listing from when they purchased it...those do stay on file, right? Do county assessors take photos when they go through?
What did he do to the bathroom? Again, not living in Minneapolis I can't say for sure but if he just replaced fixtures and put in new tile, etc. you don't need a permit for that. If he took a closet and added plumbing and added a bathroom, that would need a permit.
I think the Minneapolis City Web site does a pretty good job explaining how it all works, when you need a permit and when you don't. If you are the homeowner and you do the work yourself, you do not have to use a licensed contractor from the list provided. You still have to get permits, and do inspections. My experiance is that some of the inspectors are not very friendly to homeowners that want to do work. They are lazy and like it when they know the work was done correctly by an experianced contractor. When a homeowner does things, they often have to look closer and explain code sometimes.
As far as how can they know work was done without a permit - They don't take pictures, but they do have records on how many rooms. If you do anything like add a bath, they will know this.
Would they know if you redid a bathrooom, replaced kitchen cabinets, replaced a water heater? Not likely. I did a ton of work on my house in Minneapolis and had one issue. I hired a plubmer to tie in a shower that I was adding to my upstairs bath. Plumber pulled a permit without mentioning that, but I should have expected it. Plumber ratted me off to the general inspector and the electrical inspector. It was truly amazing how fast I had 3 inspectors in my house. I had to pull a general permit and electrical permit. General inspector was pretty cool, and told me what I had to do. Electric inspector was a total jackass. She blew off several appointments I had set for inspection, was very slow to return calls and when she finally came out she reamed me for 15 minutes, then signed off without even looking at my work.
If you do work yourself, the city takes your cost of supplies and triples it for the value used for assessment. Might want to lowball your material costs to avoid getting screwed on property tax increase.
Some things do not cause your tax to go up because they are maintenance. I did a stucco redash, redid the roof, put in a new furnace and none of those were considered remodeling.
There are a lot of old homes in the city. Many of them have questionable electric and plumbing. I think those two items get the most attention from inspectors.
What did he do to the bathroom? Again, not living in Minneapolis I can't say for sure but if he just replaced fixtures and put in new tile, etc. you don't need a permit for that. If he took a closet and added plumbing and added a bathroom, that would need a permit.
Well his property is in St Cloud, so I'm not too familiar with their policies but he seems to be under the impression that the work he did required permits. He gutted the whole thing (replacing studs, too) so walls, toilet, bath, tiling, cabinets, pipes I believe, etc.
I think the Minneapolis City Web site does a pretty good job explaining how it all works, when you need a permit and when you don't. If you are the homeowner and you do the work yourself, you do not have to use a licensed contractor from the list provided. You still have to get permits, and do inspections. My experiance is that some of the inspectors are not very friendly to homeowners that want to do work. They are lazy and like it when they know the work was done correctly by an experianced contractor. When a homeowner does things, they often have to look closer and explain code sometimes.
As far as how can they know work was done without a permit - They don't take pictures, but they do have records on how many rooms. If you do anything like add a bath, they will know this.
Would they know if you redid a bathrooom, replaced kitchen cabinets, replaced a water heater? Not likely. I did a ton of work on my house in Minneapolis and had one issue. I hired a plubmer to tie in a shower that I was adding to my upstairs bath. Plumber pulled a permit without mentioning that, but I should have expected it. Plumber ratted me off to the general inspector and the electrical inspector. It was truly amazing how fast I had 3 inspectors in my house. I had to pull a general permit and electrical permit. General inspector was pretty cool, and told me what I had to do. Electric inspector was a total jackass. She blew off several appointments I had set for inspection, was very slow to return calls and when she finally came out she reamed me for 15 minutes, then signed off without even looking at my work.
If you do work yourself, the city takes your cost of supplies and triples it for the value used for assessment. Might want to lowball your material costs to avoid getting screwed on property tax increase.
Some things do not cause your tax to go up because they are maintenance. I did a stucco redash, redid the roof, put in a new furnace and none of those were considered remodeling.
There are a lot of old homes in the city. Many of them have questionable electric and plumbing. I think those two items get the most attention from inspectors.
Yes, I guess you're right, Clifford. The site is pretty helpful on telling you when you do and don't need a permit and you can always call 311 to double check. I was talking more about this stuff we're talking about here not being as black and white but then, why would they want to advertise this stuff. lol They're trying to get people to pull permits, not teach them how to avoid them! I am trying to fill my arsenal with reasons why we should always pull permits...so far, it's not working since everyone is telling me that it's easy NOT to and that it's harder for them to realize you haven't. <~Since our projects don't require changing anything. Come on guys... I guess the idea is to put aside enough money for any "big" projects so we can go straight to calling in a contractor and bypass having to counsel/work on the project with his dad. lol That way they can be mad at us for pulling a permit after the fact.
I can attest to electric issues thanks to homeowners who want to save a few...our entire basement needed to be rewired and an electrical box moved out of a bathroom prior to us closing. The electrician found wiring practices that had been outlawed in the 70s! (not sure how long all that was there since it wasn't actually on the TISH report, just moving the box was but upon doing that he uncovered the mess of wires and any inspector who came to check on the box project would then have found this mess and required him to fix it anyhow). He warned us that he could come back and do the upstairs for us (he was being paid by the sellers/bank not by us so to check out the upstairs would have to be on our dime) but that given the mess that was created downstairs we might just want to not fiddle with the upstairs electricity. However, we swapped out a ceiling fan for a chandelier in the dining room...and now the light switch doesn't work (yes, we've tried the wires a million ways even though we were very thorough in keeping the correct wires labeled etc...so if anyone has tips on this, do tell!) and our bedroom light switches have never worked the ceiling fan in our room (and we've fiddled with the pull chords for that to no success, it only turns on with the pull chord)...Thankfully, this is really the only "problem" with our house.
I can also attest to annoying inspectors. We had to hire a plumber for a project prior to closing and he had coordinated with the inspector who was ready to go on vacation for a couple weeks without closing the permit...which would have made us miss closing and screw up our already 3 month process! Thankfully our plumber begged and pleaded and she came by at the very end of her shift the day before she went on vacation. And thankfully everything was done spick and span and she could sign off then. But for every stinker there's a rose...and on the few jobs we had to tackle ourselves before the TISH could be cleared we had a great inspector who emailed us detailed specs for the work we had to do and was available for me to call and counsel with regularly. We failed the pass anyhow (one small really stupid mistake...) but he was helpful and easy to coordinate a time to come out for when we did pass.
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We might get a couple new windows but that isn't on the agenda soon. If anything, we have a toilet that is probably going to need to be replaced and it might be a good idea to get the water heater replaced, eventually. The latter requires replacing some pipes/upgrading them and so I'm nervous about anyone who isn't trained in that field working on it. 
My hubby's the only "normal" one...most of the time. 
Thankfully our plumber begged and pleaded and she came by at the very end of her shift the day before she went on vacation. And thankfully everything was done spick and span and she could sign off then. 
But for every stinker there's a rose...and on the few jobs we had to tackle ourselves before the TISH could be cleared we had a great inspector who emailed us detailed specs for the work we had to do and was available for me to call and counsel with regularly. We failed the pass anyhow (one small really stupid mistake...) but he was helpful and easy to coordinate a time to come out for when we did pass. 
