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You're right about the weather difference between the Twin Cities and Des Moines. The number of freeze-thaw cycles is less, the traffic is less, and the amount of snowfall each winter is approximately 20" less, providing less of the raw material (water) which causes all those problems with it freezes/thaws/freezes repeatedly and which results in less plowing and less salting, both of which cause increased wear of roads.
The climate around Des Moines/Kansas City/Omaha is probably the hardest on paving surfaces anywhere. From Mid-December to March when MSP is in the deep freeze for weeks on end, DSM/KC/OMA can typically have many days that hover around 32 degrees creating the freeze thaw cycles that damage roads. And while 'snowfall' is less, these areas get much more precipitation (in fact, Des Moines typically receives as much annual precipitation as Seattle) - sleet and frozen rain (not statistically counted as snowfall) is extremely common in November and December. DSM/KC/OMA also are situated on an immese layer of glacial soil materials that hold moisture and are moderatley expansive resulting in a road subbase that expands and contracts as the seasons change.
MNDOT for whatever reason seems to favor full road surface replacement in lieu of road surface maintenance - How often do you see lane closures on Minnesota highways for things like joint repair, replacing spalled sections, or seal coating? I have very rarely seen it done in MN.
MNDOT also seems to favor asphalt paving materials over concrete paving materials which are not as durable.
The climate around Des Moines/Kansas City/Omaha is probably the hardest on paving surfaces anywhere. From Mid-December to March when MSP is in the deep freeze for weeks on end, DSM/KC/OMA can typically have many days that hover around 32 degrees creating the freeze thaw cycles that damage roads. And while 'snowfall' is less, these areas get much more precipitation (in fact, Des Moines typically receives as much annual precipitation as Seattle) - sleet and frozen rain (not statistically counted as snowfall) is extremely common in November and December. DSM/KC/OMA also are situated on an immese layer of glacial soil materials that hold moisture and are moderatley expansive resulting in a road subbase that expands and contracts as the seasons change.
MSP is in the deep freeze from mid-December to March, huh?
From 12/15/09 thru 02/28/10, MSP saw a high temperature of 33F or higher 16 times. It also saw a high temperature of 25F-32F 22 times (official readings are taken at 6.0 feet above ground in the shade - sunshine will melt snow on the ground at these temperatures, and traffic on roads melts snow/ice at these temperatures, and below).
38 out of 75 days were warm enough for thawing (and overnight freezing). Anyone who thinks MSP spends months in a row below freezing isn't paying attention, or has never lived here.
Oh, and all three of these months were slightly colder than normal for MSP. So in a typical winter, you'll have even more such days. You also ignore the fact that before Des Moines cools into the freeze/thaw cycle in early winter, MSP - being colder - is already there racking up those freeze/thaw days. And once Des Moines has left the freeze/thaw cycle in the srping, MSP is still in it, racking up freeze/thaw days.
As for precipitation, Des Moines does get more annually - about 5" more, most of that difference coming in the summer, which isn't particularly hard on roads (thus, the annual pothole apocalypse is a winter, not summer, event)
FYI - I looked it up, Seattle still gets more precipitation (and Seattle's precipitation amount is rather overrated, anyway) than either Des Moines or MSP.
Late autumn sleet/freezing rain aren't particularly hard on roads, because the ground hasn't frozen yet. It's when the ground has frozen, and water has nowhere to go, that problems occur. Before the ground freezes, the roads are dry within hours after a rainfall. The cracks are not full of water, because the water has drained into the earth. On the other hand, in the spring the air warms before the ground. That's when there are real problems. That's when the acumulated water (from snow) causes real problems. That's when getting 20" more than somewhere else shows itself in road damage.
Oh, and glacial soil - just what do you think the Twin Cities sit upon?
All of the northern climates are hard on pavement materials, but that particular latitude in the Central US (OMA/DSM/KC) is absolute murder on pavement materials. For whatever meteorological reason, the region gets alot of precipitation - substantially more than MSP. And it does not mostly occur in the summer months as you suggest - The summer months are usually bone dry in the region. And obviously, this region recieves many, many freeze/thaw cycles.
The difference in glacially deposited material is that in KC/DSM/OMA region, the soil material is largely cohesive, retains water, and is expansive. In contrast, the soil stratum in the Twin Cites is largely more granular soil material that is more permeable and not expansive - big difference.
The pot holes, joint failures, and spalled sections happen everywhere, but MNDOT does not seem to be as aggressive in repair of these deficiencies as well as surrounding states - again, how often do you see lane closures in the summer months in MN for these repairs? And when you fail to adequately repair the deficencies, the road surface degradation is a more progressive effect. A failed joint allows in more water than a functioning joint, which heaves the road surface further and more often, subjecting it to more loading, and exaccerbating the road surface degradation. I also eluded to the fact that MNDOT seems to favor asphalt paving materials which are not as durable as concrete paving materials. I suspect that as spring nears each year, the perception (or reality) of pavement deterioration by the public is amplified becasue of the greater frequency of asphalt roads and highways.
Yeah, since blacktop is made from heat it's the cold that hurts it much worse. Actually, it's not even the cold. It's the changing of temps. Pretty Sure Phoenix has never seen 100 degrees and -40 degrees within a 6 month time span. That happens on the regular here (kind of)
I suspect your reasoning here is correct, it just was not articulated correctly. Asphalt Binder actually performs better in colder temperatures. But what negates the better performace from the binder is the introduction of water which has volumetric changes in relation to temperature.
If we are talking strictly temperature, Asphlat binder performs better in the cold because it is less viscous in the cold, has more capacity to suspend the aggregate material in the mix, and has higher shear values at colder tmeperatures. Heat is actually far more deleterious to asphaltic materials than cold becasue the aggregate expands and the binder is less able to suspend the aggregate in place.
The State hasn't had $800 Million laying around, um, ever.
It's the goverment, their pocketbook doesn't work like yours. Most of their money is tied up in bonds not an actual monetary dollar amount in a savings account.
The STATE needs to do a better job at managing our money. I'm sick of using the economy as a scape goat.
bad spending habits from the past are the reason why we're in this mess now, not just because of the economic climate.
Goverments were NEVER concious about spending and now it's becoming the reality. Years and years of spending money like it's just a numerical figure is why people like you think that people like me thing "money grows on trees". For Goverment, money to them pretty much does grow on trees. They increase taxes, then decrease their provision of public services, and STILL come up short.
Im not a stadium superfan, but the time is now to build. Not waiting 'a few years' for the economy. All that will do is increase construction and lending costs, why pay $1 billion in 2017 when you can pay $600 mill right now?
The money for the stadium will not arise out of thin air. If we need to raise $600m (or whatever the daily-changing number is), someone's taxes will go up. So whose? And what tax? Hennepin County is already on the hook for the Twins stadium. Various polls have demonstrated little appetite in Minnesota for using more public money for another stadium. Renovation (Lambeau Field) and construction (Miller Park) projects in Wisconsin were not popular. Both projects passed with tax increases, but just barely. You would think at least the Lambeau renovation would have been popular in Packerland, but no, it was not.
Those in charge at the capitol have already said they don't like the expansion of gambling idea. (Personally I don't care. If my taxes stay the same at the expense of people burning money on slot machines, woo-hoo.)
A lot of the problem IS the economy. It's not just an excuse. Did you know that state revenues are way lower than they need to be? The lousy economy has caused mass layoffs. When that happens, unemployment insurance payouts rise, but there's less money coming into that pool because there are fewer jobs. Fewer jobs means less money to spend, so income, payroll, and sales tax revenues decline. When that happens, the state budget goes into the red. When that happens, you either slash spending, raise taxes, or both.
To me the biggest problem is priorities. What do we value in Minnesota? Do we value education? Well, we used to. I don't know if that's valued anymore, because the frothing anti-tax wingnuts have turned tax hatred into a cultural touchstone, and they have demonized teachers, other educators, and educational institutions in general. How many people do you hear complain like, "I don't have kids in school, so why should I pay for schools?" If you have to explain the answer to that question, you've already lost the battle.
Do we value infrastructure? Who the hell knows? The I-35W bridge wouldn't have collapsed if we valued forward-thinking infrastructure. We wouldn't be 30-plus years behind on our freeway and transit systems if we valued forward-thinking infrastructure.
It costs money to live in a nice state. That's the secret that the wingnuts don't want you to know.
The money for the stadium will not arise out of thin air. If we need to raise $600m (or whatever the daily-changing number is), someone's taxes will go up. So whose? And what tax? Hennepin County is already on the hook for the Twins stadium. Various polls have demonstrated little appetite in Minnesota for using more public money for another stadium. Renovation (Lambeau Field) and construction (Miller Park) projects in Wisconsin were not popular. Both projects passed with tax increases, but just barely. You would think at least the Lambeau renovation would have been popular in Packerland, but no, it was not.
Those in charge at the capitol have already said they don't like the expansion of gambling idea. (Personally I don't care. If my taxes stay the same at the expense of people burning money on slot machines, woo-hoo.)
A lot of the problem IS the economy. It's not just an excuse. Did you know that state revenues are way lower than they need to be? The lousy economy has caused mass layoffs. When that happens, unemployment insurance payouts rise, but there's less money coming into that pool because there are fewer jobs. Fewer jobs means less money to spend, so income, payroll, and sales tax revenues decline. When that happens, the state budget goes into the red. When that happens, you either slash spending, raise taxes, or both.
To me the biggest problem is priorities. What do we value in Minnesota? Do we value education? Well, we used to. I don't know if that's valued anymore, because the frothing anti-tax wingnuts have turned tax hatred into a cultural touchstone, and they have demonized teachers, other educators, and educational institutions in general. How many people do you hear complain like, "I don't have kids in school, so why should I pay for schools?" If you have to explain the answer to that question, you've already lost the battle.
Do we value infrastructure? Who the hell knows? The I-35W bridge wouldn't have collapsed if we valued forward-thinking infrastructure. We wouldn't be 30-plus years behind on our freeway and transit systems if we valued forward-thinking infrastructure.
It costs money to live in a nice state. That's the secret that the wingnuts don't want you to know.
I am a person trying to get a Goverment job either at the local and state level, trust me, I used to see upwards around 200 openings thoughout the state and now see roughly 30 at any given time, most of which I am highly underqualified for. So if anyone knows about goverments tightening up, it's me.
I just know that if (or when) this ever calms down, let's say 2016, we're still going to hear about Stadiums, just like we have since the Twins won their last WS.
I completely agree with you about "I don't have kids in school, so why should I pay for it?" I get this. I'm an Economic Developer. These are the things that just irks me.
"I don't drive, so why should I pay for roads"...
"I don't commit crimes so why should I have to pay for Police?"..
Those type of comments are what gets us into trouble. Same argument for light rail-Although I'm not the biggest fan of light rail, but even if you don't plan on ever USING it, you're essentially paying for a less congested roadway. A cleaner roadway, A less stressfull drive..etc.
Same with Education. So what if you don't have kids in school, your taxes are paying to have a well educated community. Higher and better education typically means less crime. Better education=competition. Comptetion increases wages for everyone.. So even if you never HAD or never WILL have kids, living in a community with better schools directly pays off for you.
I completely agree with you about "I don't have kids in school, so why should I pay for it?" I get this. I'm an Economic Developer. These are the things that just irks me.
"I don't drive, so why should I pay for roads"...
"I don't commit crimes so why should I have to pay for Police?"..
Those type of comments are what gets us into trouble. Same argument for light rail-Although I'm not the biggest fan of light rail, but even if you don't plan on ever USING it, you're essentially paying for a less congested roadway. A cleaner roadway, A less stressfull drive..etc.
Same with Education. So what if you don't have kids in school, your taxes are paying to have a well educated community. Higher and better education typically means less crime. Better education=competition. Comptetion increases wages for everyone.. So even if you never HAD or never WILL have kids, living in a community with better schools directly pays off for you.
Exactly!
And even if you don't drive, I bet you buy things at stores that were brought into the city using those roads. Just because you don't personally use something that your tax dollars go for, doesn't mean you shouldn't contribute, because you DO benefit. That's part of living in a civilized society.
And even if you don't drive, I bet you buy things at stores that were brought into the city using those roads. Just because you don't personally use something that your tax dollars go for, doesn't mean you shouldn't contribute, because you DO benefit. That's part of living in a civilized society.
I think a lot of people need to understand this and there would be a lot less tension in politics. People always complain about allocation of funds, myself included, but have to take a look and see if it does benefit you even if it is very indirectly.
Schools, Roads, Police Protection, Water and Sewer. State and Local Governments have a lot to deal with and a wide array of people to please and satisfy. Their biggest 'products' that they supply to their 'consumers' are some of the most important to deciding factors on where people choose to live. Remember, you have 100% complete control of where you live. You have the right to choose a community that caters you the best. Are you ever going to find a community that has low enough taxes while providing the highest quality of public service? maybe, maybe not, but at least you have the right to try.
They don't even try to patch them now from what I've seen. Have you driven the Riverside Ave near the U and 69th Street near Southdale recently? They used to be good roads but now they are full of potholes and nobody seems to care. Besides, they never fixed the Minnehaha Ave east of Frankin Ave since I moved here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danie123182
Does Minnesota ever do preventive maintenance like seal coatings. (Before Cracks appear).
Does the twin cities even have a preventive maintenance team or do they just wait for potholes to appear and then patch them?
The weather argument is void. Des Moines has outstanding roads.
Last edited by fashionguy; 03-08-2010 at 11:55 AM..
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