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GolfGal. My daughter went to the UofMN Duluth because she is going for dentistry (pre-dental == biology). As I explained earlier, the histogram for UofMN schools make up 65%+ of the 95 available slots (1000 apply). I've taken statistics so we went with a UofMN school and didn't apply at any private colleges. Independent of that, I would have to be convinced that St fill-in-the-blank college could teach biology better than the UMD honors classes which I highly doubt (it would be a tie).
One added detail. UMD, UofMN, or any other UofMN campus says "UofMN" on the transcript. So by definition, my daughter will list "UofMN" as her college on her resume or on any application. UMD will confuse things if she is applying for a job in Colorado. On paper they are one in the same.
The exclusive game in town for dentistry is the UofMN. There is a tremendous amount of politics that goes into who gets the seats at the UofMN for med spots as well as dentist seats. There are two options for Med school (UofMN and UMD). I've got a lot invested so we studied it hard. The bottom line is the dentistry school costs $45K a year and it is heavily subsidized by the state. If you go to WI for your undergrad and assume you are equally welcome back to finish at the UofMN, think again. So we are staring at a $180K bill for the last 4 years. That's why we paid close attention to the cost of year 1-4 as well as hedging probabilities of how to get in. Statistically speaking from the histogram, colleges other than the U are anywhere from a small to a large disadvantage. St. Olaf, Ben's etc all have great biology programs and 3-5 Kid's get in per school. But that doesn't change the odds because they are what they are. Same thing goes in Iowa. ZERO got in from other states for their Iowa dentistry program. I never look at the Medical program statistics but I assume I will for my Son.
Re: total outlay of private schools. It seems you group of friends are luckier. Here is one example of many. The 2008 Anoka Valedictorian (1 out of 600) got a 32 on her ACT and she was a biology major at St. Olaf. Her Dad paid $22K for everything x4 years ($80K +). She is rather talented and now is at the UofMN for Vet school. Several other ex-Blake students who got an ACT north of 28 all paid around $21K at St. Thomas. Another talented Benilde student that I know with high marks paid $22K per year at St. Thomas.
I've heard a lot of "free ride" stories though out the years and frankly I am skeptical. I cannot help but wonder what their parents quote as the gas mileage of their big SUV. I hear a lot of people getting 22 MPG with their Suburban while I get 15. Go figure. But we agree with Harvard's policy. But the endowment amount is a wee bit different than any MN school. I will call some of the private colleges and get the straight scoop. While I could be wrong, I think there are some extremely talented kid's paying north of $20K per year and the free rides are extremely rare. Maybe you are hearing fish tales.
My Son is applying to Stanford and we are comparing his options. But every MN private school if off of his radar. The question that begs to be asked is if you are a super talented Kid and want to drop some big bucks on college, why bother with a no-name brand like St Thomas or St. Olaf?? I just don't get it.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 11-25-2011 at 05:14 PM..
GolfGal. My daughter went to the UofMN Duluth because she is going for dentistry (pre-dental == biology). As I explained earlier, the histogram for UofMN schools make up 65%+ of the 95 available slots (1000 apply). I've taken statistics so we went with a UofMN school and didn't apply at any private colleges. Independent of that, I would have to be convinced that St fill-in-the-blank college could teach biology better than the UMD honors classes which I highly doubt (it would be a tie).
One added detail. UMD, UofMN, or any other UofMN campus says "UofMN" on the transcript. So by definition, my daughter will list "UofMN" as her college on her resume or on any application. UMD will confuse things if she is applying for a job in Colorado. On paper they are one in the same.
The exclusive game in town for dentistry is the UofMN. There is a tremendous amount of politics that goes into who gets the seats at the UofMN for med spots as well as dentist seats. There are two options for Med school (UofMN and UMD). I've got a lot invested so we studied it hard. The bottom line is the dentistry school costs $45K a year and it is heavily subsidized by the state. If you go to WI for your undergrad and assume you are equally welcome back to finish at the UofMN, think again. So we are staring at a $180K bill for the last 4 years. That's why we paid close attention to the cost of year 1-4 as well as hedging probabilities of how to get in. Statistically speaking from the histogram, colleges other than the U are anywhere from a small to a large disadvantage. St. Olaf, Ben's etc all have great biology programs and 3-5 Kid's get in per school. But that doesn't change the odds because they are what they are. Same thing goes in Iowa. ZERO got in from other states for their Iowa dentistry program. I never look at the Medical program statistics but I assume I will for my Son.
Re: total outlay of private schools. It seems you group of friends are luckier. Here is one example of many. The 2008 Anoka Valedictorian (1 out of 600) got a 32 on her ACT and she was a biology major at St. Olaf. Her Dad paid $22K for everything x4 years ($80K +). She is rather talented and now is at the UofMN for Vet school. Several other ex-Blake students who got an ACT north of 28 all paid around $21K at St. Thomas. Another talented Benilde student that I know with high marks paid $22K per year at St. Thomas.
I've heard a lot of "free ride" stories though out the years and frankly I am skeptical. I cannot help but wonder what their parents quote as the gas mileage of their big SUV. I hear a lot of people getting 22 MPG with their Suburban while I get 15. Go figure. But we agree with Harvard's policy. But the endowment amount is a wee bit different than any MN school. I will call some of the private colleges and get the straight scoop. While I could be wrong, I think there are some extremely talented kid's paying north of $20K per year and the free rides are extremely rare. Maybe you are hearing fish tales.
My Son is applying to Stanford and we are comparing his options. But every MN private school if off of his radar. The question that begs to be asked is if you are a super talented Kid and want to drop some big bucks on college, why bother with a no-name brand like St Thomas or St. Olaf?? I just don't get it.
22K at the U of M is also equal to 80K+ though--sure maybe you shave off 2000/year if you are a top students, maybe so you are at 80K vs 88K. I think you will find that the "no-brand" schools have a much better reputation for many programs then the U of M does. I think you will find that you can almost always graduate in 4 years at the smaller private schools vs either taking a lot of summer school and getting through the U in 4 years or spending 5 years at the U because you can't get the classes you need (another COMMON complaint I hear-and at other large universities our friends' kids attend).
22K at the U of M is also equal to 80K+ though--sure maybe you shave off 2000/year if you are a top students, maybe so you are at 80K vs 88K. I think you will find that the "no-brand" schools have a much better reputation for many programs then the U of M does. I think you will find that you can almost always graduate in 4 years at the smaller private schools vs either taking a lot of summer school and getting through the U in 4 years or spending 5 years at the U because you can't get the classes you need (another COMMON complaint I hear-and at other large universities our friends' kids attend).
When I was talking about the low $20K range for St. Thomas that was three years ago. The U was $10,500 for tuition fees then plus $7K to live on campus. So loaded up and zero scholarships it was $17,500. It is the same price for UMD. My daughter wasn't a "top student" per say and she got a "presidential scholarship" @$3K off per year. At UMD if you take the honors course load, they have a mining scholarship (I forget the exact name but I can look) for $2K per semester 3 years running but not guaranteed). So even at today's higher tuition, she is getting $7K off per year or $5K plus books totaling $6K. Then add $7K for living on campus which is a typical amount for just about any college. That is currently at $13K all loaded up. The reality is her friends with similar GPA and class rank are racking up some serious student debt at St. Kate's. I will ask her friend what she is paying but I bet it will be close to $10K more per year. At the end of the day, I need to ask if she will be a better dentist if I payout another $40K. My answer is no so I will keep the $40K in my pocket.
As I have pointed to before, the top students get these University-Wide Scholarships . In my 2008 Anoka Valedictorian example, she would have paid zero for tuition and $7K for room and board. That sure beats $22K a year. At the end of the day, would she be a better Vet by going to St. Olaf?
I am not sure where you are getting $88K for the U even with zero scholarships. Also, my comparisons were from 2008. I will be up to date again when we compare all of the options for my Son. I'm also assuming those rates have gone up at St. Fill-In-The-Blank. There is positively no doubt about it: for the vast majority of students, private is a bit more $$'s than public. The reason for any debate is parents who are trying to support their decision for paying more continue to quote non-discounted prices for the UofMN while they discuss their $70K discount at St.Kate's. As we all know, the actual cost of the U is also considerably more but it is state subsidized.
There are a lot of reasons people want to go the private college route. Those decisions are personal and if they are deemed important, then that is the right decision for them. Some people also really don't care about spending the money because they have it. But for those students who are racking up the debt like my daughters friends, I question their financial intelligence. Student debt is a real problem. I'm much rather use that $40K that I saved for a house down payment versus some cool St. Olaf campus experience.
Re: 4 versus 5 years to finish. My daughter got a year of generals done with PSEO. She wants a minor in business (a smart idea if you want to own a private practice and an advantage when applying to the dentistry school). She will therefore finish in 4 years at age 21. Like you mentioned, she was concerned that she could not get the classes she wanted delaying her graduation. So at 10:30AM when she was able to register, she was hitting refresh on her computer. At 10:35AM she was finished registering. The early bird gets their worm.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 11-25-2011 at 10:54 PM..
22K at the U of M is also equal to 80K+ though--sure maybe you shave off 2000/year if you are a top students, maybe so you are at 80K vs 88K. I think you will find that the "no-brand" schools have a much better reputation for many programs then the U of M does. I think you will find that you can almost always graduate in 4 years at the smaller private schools vs either taking a lot of summer school and getting through the U in 4 years or spending 5 years at the U because you can't get the classes you need (another COMMON complaint I hear-and at other large universities our friends' kids attend).
I agree with you that sometimes private can be a better option (though I don't believe it gives you a better education), I disagree a bit with this post.
Graduating in four years at a private college is partially due to strict requirements on registration and aid. My cousin at St. Olaf had to register for a certain number of courses to keep his aid and would never be able to pay for a fifth year. A few people apparently have done it at St. Olaf, but it's highly discouraged.
This also puts a lot of pressure on deciding on a major fairly early on. My cousin was lucky and was able to fiddle around for the first two years, unsure of what he was going to do, but it came really close...and technically, though he graduated "on time", he really didn't - he got to walk at graduation, but had to take a math class during the summer before he received his diploma. He was able to take it at his home near MSU-Mankato, but that meant paying a hefty amount of fees for one course. Meanwhile, I've been all over the place at the University. I actually applied for college (at NDSU) thinking I'd do pre-med, then switched a month before I started to computer science. I quickly discovered it wasn't for me and made the switch to journalism, and then transferred to the U for my sophomore year. Since then, I've added a major (political science), and dabbled in other courses a bit. I will be graduating in four years (in part thanks to my College in the Schools credits), despite all these changes and having a few semesters where I was full-time but under the amount of credits you need to graduate on time. That's not too bad. State schools are built to be much more flexible than most private colleges are.
Additionally, getting the courses you need can be a problem, but this isn't always because there isn't space. Oftentimes, those who register before you just take the better times. Who wants an 8 a.m. class anyway? So many people simply opt to not take the class due to its time (early, conflicts with another class, etc.), even if it is available. This same thing can happen at private schools too: my cousin had problems getting into some courses at St. Olaf. However, I've never had an issue as I've always been able to get into the courses I need, even last year, when my aid came in late, which put a hold on my account. I couldn't register for nearly a month, but I still got into all the classes I wanted. I had to be waitlisted on a few, but having a lot of credits put me into senior status and ensured I got near the top of the list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-and-Raised
Re: a higher ACT and good class rank. Let me put it to you this way, sometimes if you don't ask you don't get. I called admissions at the UofMN and got my daughters yearly scholarship raised to $3K a year (from $1K). Here ACT was 27 and her ranking was 30 out of 550. You have to put your sales hat on. Explaining what the competition will do is key and your phrasing will be an important part of your success (don't threaten). WHEN you call is also important. Putting it another way, I will bet the farm that I could have gotten you a $3K scholarship for 4 years ($12K total) if you applied at the UofMN initially. They only have so many scholarship dollars. So the initial package that was offered was $1K per year. Off course there were others who were offered more that will later attend another school. Those are the dollars that you want to chase. Your timing and approach are key. I taught this to my daughters best friend and he got hers bumped to $2K from $0. She had a 26 on her ACT and maybe a ranking of 100 out of 550. For them, that was a $8K phone call.
To be honest, I was completely unaware of calling and essentially asking for a larger scholarship. My parents never particularly worried about me as I was the high achiever of the family, so when I took matters into my own hands by arranging my own college visits, filling out applications, and completely the FAFSA myself, they didn't think there was much else to do. Probably does help that they had untraditional post-high school training (my dad had an extended undergrad between two schools, started but didn't finish grad school, and ended up going to a technical school before starting his own business; my mom did some nursing and beauty school stuff), so they weren't completely familiar with the process. That said, I've been fortunate enough in the last two years to receive a little bit of aid - I've been given some subsidized loans, the stimulus grant for two years, a middle-income scholarship last year, and state grants this year. I definitely would have been better off if I attended the University first, but their transfer policies are also atrocious and something that need to be worked on.
To be honest, I was completely unaware of calling and essentially asking for a larger scholarship. My parents never particularly worried about me as I was the high achiever of the family, so when I took matters into my own hands by arranging my own college visits, filling out applications, and completely the FAFSA myself, they didn't think there was much else to do.
Like you, my parents were completely hands off (I grew up poor) and I am the 1st to graduate from anything beyond high school. I could have had free college based off of their income and family size. But my Anoka counselors had 900 other seniors to talk to so I never say him once in my three years. I had zero direction. I got a job at Honeywell as a technician and over the next 10 years, I got my degree at the Uof MN for "free". Talk about stressful: wife, Kid, house, full time worker, and college student at the UofMN for electrical engineering and later business. I suppose I have over compensated in finding opportunities for my Kid's. I suspect I know more than most high school counselors as I have spent a lot of hours on the topic. It's taken years of preparation but my youngest will be getting a 6 figure scholarship at a top 10 rated college. This view point has really opened up my eyes as to why some students are successful and why others are not. It's the parenting and I feel bad for students that don't get much direction or have a bad home-life. My Kid's have opportunities to shadow different careers while they were younger. So I feel for you when you search for a career that is right for you. Look at the bright side, you are learning a lot!
I didn't know it would work to ask for more $$ either. As you know, many students apply at 3-4 colleges and they cannot attend them all. So if you time the call before the deadline to accept, they have meetings to give out that money to others to land the "better" students. Get the adviser email address who is in charge and stay close.
I think you will find that the "no-brand" schools have a much better reputation for many programs then the U of M does.
I can promise you that the person hiring will have a bias on whatever school they attended. That is human nature. Excluding that bias, if you want to be a music teacher anywhere, go to St. Olaf. If you are looking for a World Class liberal arts school, go to Carleton (not the UofMN)! But if you want to stay in MN for business, go to the CSOM. Engineering, the UofMN etc.
So long as someone goes to Saint Fill-In-The-Blank and plans on living in MN, there will be advantages for the private colleges over the UofMN when you run into the HR person from St. Thomas. Soon, where you graduate will get diluted as you get more experience. Now if you go to Harvard, West Point, Yale, MIT, Stanford etc, that will open all kinds of doors forever because they are highly selective and it is a litmus test that you are smart and driven. I'm not even saying that the education is better; it may not be. But perception becomes reality in the minds of some.
But IMHO, you are not maximizing your opportunity when students go to St. Kate's and assume a business in Texas has ever heard of the college. I propose it could be a disadvantage. For all they know, it could be a pay-per-view degree out the back of a magazine. If I was in HR or the hiring manager with 50 applications on my desk, why would I want to google "Monmouth University" which is a top rated private college in NJ??? Hey, maybe it is better than St. Kate's? WHo knows and who cares to find out. That Texas company certainly has heard of the UofMN.
So I stand by my reasoning. If you are a talented student and plan on spending a lot of Mom and Dad's money at St. Ben's for instance, why on earth would you want to go there?
I'm not sure why people seem to think that individual anecdotes are an acceptable alternative to legitimate data. IPEDS tracks Net Price at colleges and universities. For 09/10:
UofMN (main campus): $14,990
Carleton: $27,036
St. Olaf: $25,557
And, there is a separate breakdown by income. For Title IV students from <$30k income, here are the net price figures:
UofMN (main campus): $5,843
Carleton: $7,890
St. Olaf: $9,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by xandrex
I do dispute that you will get aid for having an ACT of 27 or higher and a good class rank. I got a 28 on my ACT, which is a pretty decent score and had an okay class rank (definitely top third, but my GPA was definitely decent...just had a competitive bunch of students with lots of high achievers). I received nothing from the U and to this day haven't had a single scholarship. Their only contribution was a small need-based "middle income" grant that they gave me for one year (their transfer student policy is a bit lacking). A friend of mine with a 28 ACT and a very competitive GPA and class rank hasn't received any huge scholarships from the U either (except one from the journalism department for this year, in part due to an excellent essay and being able to use family circumstances to win people over).
The 75th %ile admitted ACT score at the UofMN main campus is 30.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal
I think you will find that the "no-brand" schools have a much better reputation for many programs then the U of M does.
Examples?
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal
I think you will find that you can almost always graduate in 4 years at the smaller private schools vs either taking a lot of summer school and getting through the U in 4 years or spending 5 years at the U because you can't get the classes you need (another COMMON complaint I hear-and at other large universities our friends' kids attend).
Larger schools have more demand but also more supply. There are two problems here:
A. Restricted course offerings to balance the institutional budget (ie UC system)
B. Enrollment caps to improve class size figures, at the expense of actual education
I agree with you that sometimes private can be a better option (though I don't believe it gives you a better education), I disagree a bit with this post.
Graduating in four years at a private college is partially due to strict requirements on registration and aid. My cousin at St. Olaf had to register for a certain number of courses to keep his aid and would never be able to pay for a fifth year. A few people apparently have done it at St. Olaf, but it's highly discouraged.
This also puts a lot of pressure on deciding on a major fairly early on. My cousin was lucky and was able to fiddle around for the first two years, unsure of what he was going to do, but it came really close...and technically, though he graduated "on time", he really didn't - he got to walk at graduation, but had to take a math class during the summer before he received his diploma. He was able to take it at his home near MSU-Mankato, but that meant paying a hefty amount of fees for one course. Meanwhile, I've been all over the place at the University. I actually applied for college (at NDSU) thinking I'd do pre-med, then switched a month before I started to computer science. I quickly discovered it wasn't for me and made the switch to journalism, and then transferred to the U for my sophomore year. Since then, I've added a major (political science), and dabbled in other courses a bit. I will be graduating in four years (in part thanks to my College in the Schools credits), despite all these changes and having a few semesters where I was full-time but under the amount of credits you need to graduate on time. That's not too bad. State schools are built to be much more flexible than most private colleges are.
Additionally, getting the courses you need can be a problem, but this isn't always because there isn't space. Oftentimes, those who register before you just take the better times. Who wants an 8 a.m. class anyway? So many people simply opt to not take the class due to its time (early, conflicts with another class, etc.), even if it is available. This same thing can happen at private schools too: my cousin had problems getting into some courses at St. Olaf. However, I've never had an issue as I've always been able to get into the courses I need, even last year, when my aid came in late, which put a hold on my account. I couldn't register for nearly a month, but I still got into all the classes I wanted. I had to be waitlisted on a few, but having a lot of credits put me into senior status and ensured I got near the top of the list.
To be honest, I was completely unaware of calling and essentially asking for a larger scholarship. My parents never particularly worried about me as I was the high achiever of the family, so when I took matters into my own hands by arranging my own college visits, filling out applications, and completely the FAFSA myself, they didn't think there was much else to do. Probably does help that they had untraditional post-high school training (my dad had an extended undergrad between two schools, started but didn't finish grad school, and ended up going to a technical school before starting his own business; my mom did some nursing and beauty school stuff), so they weren't completely familiar with the process. That said, I've been fortunate enough in the last two years to receive a little bit of aid - I've been given some subsidized loans, the stimulus grant for two years, a middle-income scholarship last year, and state grants this year. I definitely would have been better off if I attended the University first, but their transfer policies are also atrocious and something that need to be worked on.
Every school has requirements to take so many classes or lose your aid--it's a federal aid rule, not a school rule. You have to be more then part-time to get aid, period. Most financial aid, however, does have allowances for a 5th year. Sure class registration issues can come down to the individual but most often it is because some classes are only offered first semester, for example, and they fill up fast because of that, putting off graduation for at least another semester. At the private schools it is very rare to not get the classes you need.
MN-Born-n-Raised--I paid for 100% of my own schooling, at St. Ben's, as a matter of fact. You find that more often then you think. I only knew of a handful of kids that were not paying for most or all of their own schooling. Same goes for our friends's kids now, they all are contributing a significant portion of their costs for school either through savings, scholarships or working while going to school. Interestingly enough, all of the dentists we know did NOT go to the U of M, they went to St. John's, St. Ben's or other private schools...
Golfgal, I don't understand why you always seem to argue against the U of M. You went to a MIAC school and you had a good experience, we get it. I've had the opportunity to attend both private and public universities in this state, (St. John's and the U of M), and I believe they are both excellent schools and would highly recommend both. I believe when it comes to college education to a large extent you're going to get what you pay for. A more expensive school/program will get you something extra, whether it's a more reputable school on your resume, a better more high-tech facility, more qualified faculty, smaller class sizes, etc. etc. State schools have the benefit of receiving public funding so they will be less expensive in almost all circumstances (although the scholarships offered by private schools certainly help). I believe all are good choices in the long-run though.
Last edited by Cruz Azul Guy; 11-27-2011 at 10:49 AM..
Golfgal, I don't understand why you always seem to argue against the U of M. You went to a MIAC school and you had a good experience, we get it. I've had the opportunity to attend both private and public universities in this state, (St. John's and the U of M), and I believe they are both excellent schools and would highly recommend both. I believe when it comes to college education to a large extent you're going to get what you pay for. A more expensive school/program will get you something extra, whether it's a more reputable school on your resume, a better more high-tech facility, more qualified faculty, smaller class sizes, etc. etc. State schools have the benefit of receiving public funding so they will be less expensive in almost all circumstances (although the scholarships offered by private schools certainly help). I believe all are good choices in the long-run though.
I'm not against the U of M but rarely is the U of M less expensive then private schools for better students, which is the point that some people here just don't understand. There is nothing wrong with most of the state schools but to exclude private schools because they "cost" more is just short changing your child and possibly eliminating a great fit for them because you see a $40K price tag and ignore the aid available to most students, aid that is not available at state schools because they don't have the money to give.
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But we agree with Harvard's policy. But the endowment amount is a wee bit different than any MN school.
I will call some of the private colleges and get the straight scoop. While I could be wrong, I think there are some extremely talented kid's paying north of $20K per year and the free rides are extremely rare. Maybe you are hearing fish tales.
I suspect I know more than most high school counselors as I have spent a lot of hours on the topic. It's taken years of preparation but my youngest will be getting a 6 figure scholarship at a top 10 rated college. This view point has really opened up my eyes as to why some students are successful and why others are not. It's the parenting and I feel bad for students that don't get much direction or have a bad home-life. My Kid's have opportunities to shadow different careers while they were younger. So I feel for you when you search for a career that is right for you. 
If you are looking for a World Class liberal arts school, go to Carleton (not the UofMN)! But if you want to stay in MN for business, go to the CSOM. Engineering, the UofMN etc.
