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ElkHunter, all gray wolves are the same species, period. The ones reintroduced are the same subspecies that lived in the Rockies before. This Canadian gray wolf argument is a fallacy created by extreme hunting groups and ranching interests. You look at any literature on wolves not written by those groups and you can see that is the same species. The wolf in Canada and the Northern Rockies is the same as the Eurasian wolf, the Mexican wolf, the Arabian wolf, the Indian wolf, and the Great Plains wolf. The wolves selected were the same as the ones that inhabited the Lower 48. Last time I checked wolves didn't recognize international boundaries. Like I mentioned before, this is like saying an Idaho elk vs. a Wyoming or Montana elk. They cross state boundaries pretty freely. Look at Yellowstone.
ElkHunter, all gray wolves are the same species, period. The ones reintroduced are the same subspecies that lived in the Rockies before. This Canadian gray wolf argument is a fallacy created by extreme hunting groups and ranching interests.
See the below quoted post as it applies to you also..... I'll leave it at that since you haven't the ability for proper research.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan_K
Bla, bla, bla.... All talk you are. You know nothing !
ElkHunter, all gray wolves are the same species, period. The ones reintroduced are the same subspecies that lived in the Rockies before.
The wolf in Canada and the Northern Rockies is the same as the Eurasian wolf, the Mexican wolf, the Arabian wolf, the Indian wolf, and the Great Plains wolf.
.....and a polar bear is the same as a honey bear is the same as a Kodiak is the same as a black bear is the same as a sloth bear...ad infinitum.
How is that argument working in your home state of Wyoming, anybody buying the hyperbole yet?
The genus Canis is a very elastic gene and looking at canis familiaris alone brings doubt to your argument. Few people would say that a Rottwieller is the same as a Peekapoo, or there is no difference between a Great Dane and a Mexican Hairless, but this is the exact argument you are using.
The original poster asked if newcomers were ruining Montana, you have given an excellent example of what happens when people who don't understand the life here push their beliefs on those of us who live here.
To the OP, I had neighbors near Bozeman that moved here from NYC. They quickly adapted to the life here, were excellent neighbors, and outside of their accents would have been impossible to identify as anything other than Montanans.
to anyone planning on moving here, if you come here, make it your home by becoming part of the culture here. Learn to appreciate what has been built, how we live. Join us in preservation of the best of the state part of which is the people who have made their own lives here.
Don't try to destroy what we have by bringing your own "wolves" here. (That is a metaphor for those who don't make the connection). We don't need them, don't want them.
When you look at these boards, see what those folks like Threerun, MT-7, Montana Griz and others who have moved here and become one of us have to say.
Those who moved away for whatever reason often have their own ax to grind.
Stephan, just do a Google search for Gray wolf. You will find that there is not much agreement on the number of subspecies, but you will not find many that mention a "Canadian wolf" like the extremist hunting groups or the ranching interests. Also, if these wolves were captured in an area that had the same prey as they would find in Yellowstone and central Idaho. If they had reintroduced Arctic wolves that preyed on muskoxen or Indian wolves that preyed on blackbucks then that would have been an unintelligent choice as well as possibly had more of the characteristics of an invasive species. However, since the niche of the wolf (whatever subspecies) had not been filled, these new ones were just refilling it. Also, your profile says you live in Northwest Montana. The wolves in that part of the state reestablished themselves so you really have no basis and complaining about reintroduction.
MT Silvertip, those bears you mentioned are not the same species and anyone who knows much about them knows this. Also, why are you talking about dogs in this argument?
Also, I grew up in Montana (having moved there when I was 10) so I do consider myself a Montanan. I lived there for 16 years so I do think I have some basis for complaint. However, it was people like I see on this post and the lousy wages that made me move out. I might add that it was very controversial for me to move out so I must not have been hated by too many people around me. Also, as I mentioned before, if I am talking these horrible outsiders out of moving there, shouldn't you be grateful?
Also, why are you talking about dogs in this argument?
Also, I grew up in Montana (having moved there when I was 10) so I do consider myself a Montanan. I lived there for 16 years so I do think I have some basis for complaint. However, it was people like I see on this post and the lousy wages that made me move out. I might add that it was very controversial for me to move out so I must not have been hated by too many people around me. Also, as I mentioned before, if I am talking these horrible outsiders out of moving there, shouldn't you be grateful?
A: I am talking about dogs because dogs are supposed to have decended from wolves, so that means by following your argument, there is no difference between dogs and wolves right? And as all wolves are the same, must mean all dogs are the same too.
You may consider yourself a Montanan, fine, but moving here at 10 years old, moving out at 26 means you are a transient, not a permanent resident.
Besides, I don't classify all people who want to move here as quote "horrible outsiders " end quote, I classify them as people. If they wish to come here, fit in, work hard, raise their families and embrace the traditions of Montana and make a posative contribution to the community, I welcome them.
If they wish to impose a foreign way of thinking on us po' dum hicks, or try to sell us a bill of goods, then yes, they can stay in Wyoming or Minnesota or whereever they come from. We have enough of those already.
Location: Approximately 50 miles from Missoula MT/38 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter
Yes, outsiders are ruining Montana. By outsiders, I'm talking about those that do not fit in, like the wolf. Yes, the wolves that are in Montana are outsiders.
Some people need to wake up to the facts of the wolves that are in Montana now. Obviously, a few people didn't research and have no idea what they are talking about.
Montana, Idaho and Wyoming had grey wolves and were eradicated back in the 20's. Grey wolves weighed 40-50 pounds and ranged 50-60 miles.
A few years ago, some idiot in office decided to "Reintroduce" the wolf. He failed miserably. He didn't reintroduce grey wolves, he introduced Mackenzie wolves. Yes, there is a slight different. Grey's weighed 40-50 pounds. Mackenzies weigh 130-150 pounds. Grey's range 50-60 miles. Mackenzie's range 600-700 miles.
A wolf will kill for nothing more then to train it's young. Not because it's hungry, but for training. Wolves in Minnisota??? Yeah, almost house pets. These Mackenzies aren't even close. Ask the rancher 2 years ago that lost over 100 head of sheep in one night. Think that pack of wolves was that hungry? I'm not sure what sheep are selling for these days, but no matter how you look at it, that family lost a lot of money that night.
The legislatures agreed to bring back the wolf and they would monitor the numbers and make sure the numbers were held at a particular number. They haven't done that. Those numbers are quadruple of what was agreed upon. The legislatures agreed that the wolves would be contained in a particular area. Didn't happen. Those wolves are currently 700 miles from that particular area.
Grey wolves will take down weak, slow critters. Mackenzies will take down a healthy horse. And they kill for fun. They are spreading out. Look for them coming to a neighborhood near you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
.....and a polar bear is the same as a honey bear is the same as a Kodiak is the same as a black bear is the same as a sloth bear...ad infinitum.
How is that argument working in your home state of Wyoming, anybody buying the hyperbole yet?
The genus Canis is a very elastic gene and looking at canis familiaris alone brings doubt to your argument. Few people would say that a Rottwieller is the same as a Peekapoo, or there is no difference between a Great Dane and a Mexican Hairless, but this is the exact argument you are using.
The original poster asked if newcomers were ruining Montana, you have given an excellent example of what happens when people who don't understand the life here push their beliefs on those of us who live here.
To the OP, I had neighbors near Bozeman that moved here from NYC. They quickly adapted to the life here, were excellent neighbors, and outside of their accents would have been impossible to identify as anything other than Montanans.
to anyone planning on moving here, if you come here, make it your home by becoming part of the culture here. Learn to appreciate what has been built, how we live. Join us in preservation of the best of the state part of which is the people who have made their own lives here.
Don't try to destroy what we have by bringing your own "wolves" here. (That is a metaphor for those who don't make the connection). We don't need them, don't want them.
When you look at these boards, see what those folks like Threerun, MT-7, Montana Griz and others who have moved here and become one of us have to say.
Those who moved away for whatever reason often have their own ax to grind.
Elkhunter, Great Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
A: I am talking about dogs because dogs are supposed to have decended from wolves, so that means by following your argument, there is no difference between dogs and wolves right? And as all wolves are the same, must mean all dogs are the same too.
You may consider yourself a Montanan, fine, but moving here at 10 years old, moving out at 26 means you are a transient, not a permanent resident.
Besides, I don't classify all people who want to move here as quote "horrible outsiders " end quote, I classify them as people. If they wish to come here, fit in, work hard, raise their families and embrace the traditions of Montana and make a posative contribution to the community, I welcome them.
If they wish to impose a foreign way of thinking on us po' dum hicks, or try to sell us a bill of goods, then yes, they can stay in Wyoming or Minnesota or whereever they come from. We have enough of those already.
.....Hey Elk Hunter and MTSilverTip............"GREAT posts"......you guys are realistic and have the knowledge gained through living in Montana many years longer than some other "posters" in this Thread. In fact, the (3) of us with our collective ages..... (years under tthe belt=more "smarts" between the ears).....are "pushin' hard" against about 190 years. If just the years we've lived here in Montana are totaled, it's about 100------ironic isn't it, that our views, thoughts and conclusions on certain topics are quite similiar and are contrary to those of a "transplant" who "bailed-out" of MT when the "goin' got a little rough!
........Have a "good-one" guys, and don't forget: CARPE DIEM
I find this post fascinating. I'm from Tennessee, East Tennessee hard against the Smokies. We have faced many of the same problems with folks moving in from other parts of the country. Locally they are called 'halfbacks'. Folks moving from the north to Florida, then finding they can't take the heat so they move half way back. Many of the folks on this thread state the same thing we've been saying for years. Don't move here and then try to change everything about the place and the people.
It's more than a little sad for me to find out Montana is being overrun as well as it has always been my dream to live there for a time.
I see there is no more point in arguing here, I can get a better conversation with my cats. So I bid adieu to this post!
Meow!
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