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Grizzly encounters with tragic endings--for people and/or for Griz--are becoming more frequent. I don't know if you guys have seen this story, because it started out as an Idaho story, but it turns out the actual encounter was right on the border of Boundary and Lincoln County up on Buckhorn Mountain, and Montana authorities are handling the case:
On Friday a hunter shot a grizzly, believing it to be a black bear. He and his hunting partner pursue the wounded bear which then turns on them, and kills one of them, The other one then kills the bear, and realizes it was a grizzly. Those seem to be the facts, but the story is just now coming out in its complexity--did the older hunter actually risk his life (and lost it) to save the young hunter who shot the bear?
Very timely post CFF. With hunting season, more people are headed out into the woods while the bears are at their most active right now trying to put on weight for hibernation.
I have had numerous run-in's with griz over the years. I have gained experience and had knowledgeable teachers, so both the griz and I have walked away. No harm, no foul, no blood spilled, Knock on wood I can continue that record!
But it is getting more dangerous out there every year, more and more bears, which means the young bears are being pushed into new territories as the older established bears have their own territories so the young have to go to places there have not been bears for over 100 years, add to that, more people are using the backcountry or moving closer to the wilderness, it is a prescription for disaster.
I knew a photographer in Bozeman many years ago that was hiking and met a griz on the trail. This was before bear spray, so he was carrying a 41 magnum pistol for protection. When he saw the bear he yelled and screamed, flailed his arms, everything he could to turn the bear. There were no trees big enough to climb nearby, no place to escape.
The first time he fired the bear was at 10 feet distance, the second time he had the muzzle of the pistol against the bears head and the bear had his paw around the guys leg.
I could have bought the pistol and the box of shells with 2 missing because the photographer had to sell it and other things to pay his fine for not letting the bear eat him.
There is a sow griz that dens behind my cabin every year in a rockslide. She has been there for about 3 years now, and raised cubs there. When she is there, there are no animals around, they go to safer places. I always go armed in that area because I don't know where she is. I run chainsaws, generators, power tools, and there are animals usually close by. They know I am there and it doesn't bother them. They know me, and that outside of a few weeks in the fall, I won't hurt them.
This means I must be very careful at all times because if prey species are not disturbed by the noise, that griz won't be either.
Yes, it can be scary out there, but I am as much a part of the natural order as that bear. We are both apex preditors, and the only animal that really preys on us is each other.
Now as long as that bear leaves me alone, I won't bother it, but if it comes for me, I know the limitations of bear spray in windy country, which means one of us won't go home and I will not let the bear win in that situation. I will employ lethal means to protect myself and my family, just as the bear would if I threatened her cubs.
As I stated, I have lived with her and other bears all my life, and as long as they leave me alone, I won't bother them. The choice is theirs. I don't forgive a bear having a bad hair day as reason to chew on me. I take all precautions I can to avoid putting myself in a situation where I could be hurt or killed, but at the same time, I cannot control what a bear will or will not do, and it is up to me to protect myself.
As long as griz populations are growing at current rates, and the young aggressive bears are pushed into new territories, there will be confrontations with humans, and the results will be dead and wounded people, and dead bears.
The only solution I can see is a limited hunting season to instill respect in the bears so they will avoid humans. Currently, they have nothing to fear, so there is no deterrent to killing a human. Bears are very smart, and they can understand when somthing will hurt or kill them very quickly.
A limited hunting season would give the bears reason to avoid humans, thereby saving their own lives.
That woman wrangler in the story was very lucky. A bear that size if it wanted could have taken her and her horse apart without breaking a sweat.
As long as we have apex preditors like humans and griz in the same territories, pursuing the same game, there will be confrontations. It is the nature of both the beasts, and it is a game the bears will ultimately loose if steps are not taken to instill respect in them that humans are dangerous and should be avoided.
Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by MTSilvertip; 09-18-2011 at 11:02 PM..
I'm wondering if the forest service cruising bear country and stinging 'em with rubber bullets might be useful to "teach 'em respect" for humans. Yeah, first you gotta find the bear, but you'd think if they just worked the rubber bullet trick on whatever bears they encounter in their everyday work, it might make a difference.
Location: Approximately 50 miles from Missoula MT/38 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
2,308 posts, read 4,123,568 times
Reputation: 5025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac
I'm wondering if the forest service cruising bear country and stinging 'em with rubber bullets might be useful to "teach 'em respect" for humans. Yeah, first you gotta find the bear, but you'd think if they just worked the rubber bullet trick on whatever bears they encounter in their everyday work, it might make a difference.
Rubber Bullets..aka.."Sting Ball Rounds" leave the muzzle at approx 400 fps, and have an effective range of approx 10 yards.
To see if they would "work on Grizzlies"......I'll supply the gun and the Sting Ball Rounds on the condition that Reziac is the one to approach within 10 yards of the Grizzly (that is to be "shooed" out of a Camp Ground"). And we'll have "7" and EH on the Video Cameras.
Then when we win the Grand Prize on "America's Funniest Home Video", we'll all get together and go visit "Rez" in the hospital.
.......Just "poking" fun Rez.......no offense intended.
I knows you's funnin', cuz there wouldn't be enough Rez left to put in hospital
I thought some of those rubber rounds had more range than that... I suppose stingin' 'em with a shotgun would work just as well. Except you'll have to find someone who can tote somethin' heavier than my little 20ga.
I'm wondering if the forest service cruising bear country and stinging 'em with rubber bullets might be useful to "teach 'em respect" for humans. Yeah, first you gotta find the bear, but you'd think if they just worked the rubber bullet trick on whatever bears they encounter in their everyday work, it might make a difference.
I am thinking that would be a great way to open up some jobs with the forest service in a hurry
Griz have no sense of humor, and if you smack one in the butt with a rubber BB, he will probably smack back much harder.
Methods that work on black bear, rubber bullets, fireworks, Karilian bear dog harrasment, electric fences work on black bears because they are not normally an agressive animal. They are going to run from you 99 times out of 100 with the exceptions of if they are wounded, starving, feel cornered or have cubs.
Griz ARE aggressive. They are the kings of the hill as far as they know, and will meet any challenge with force. They see it as a challenge to their dominance of a territory, and will do what they have to to prove they are tougher than you.
The one thing working for humans, is that most griz normally don't see humans as a threat, so will ignore them, usually.
However, if they want to go down a trail you are currently sharing, they will take the right of way. If you surprise them, they will react, normally with force.
A sow with cubs is one of the most dangerous animals on earth, period.
Then you have the bear who just woke up on the wrong side of the cave, and wants to take it out on somebody, or a young bear looking for love and being disapointed by finding a human instead of a lovely sow, or the human who stumbles on a griz's food locker and is seen as a thief. No appeals court on that one
The last factor will apply to any griz, if they are starving, you move up on the ontree menu choices, (see the incident earlier this year just outside Yellowstone), or if they are injured and cannot get their normal food. As a griz ages and looses it's speed, reflexes, and maybe teeth, they can be pushed from their normal territory by younger stronger bears. This puts the bear at a disadvantage as it has to try and find food in a strange area, or an area with fewer resources.
When a griz is hungry, they will kill and eat just about anything.
The only thing griz respect, is something stronger than they are or more dangerous.
We had a season in Montana for griz until the 1970's, and very few incidents of bear agression. I will admit, there were fewer griz then than there are now, but they knew that humans could kill them, so they stayed out of sight.
Griz don't have the forgiving nature or oportunistic ability to adapt to living in close proximity to humans, they are dangerous and must be respected for the apex preditor they are.
I have seen too many griz at close range to EVER take them for granted. It is a truely religious experience to suddenly find that elk you were stalking is instead a fully grown griz. A quick retreat before he finds out you were looking at him from less than 30 yards is the best option, and once at a nice quiet safe place, you can take time to change your underwear
Location: Approximately 50 miles from Missoula MT/38 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
2,308 posts, read 4,123,568 times
Reputation: 5025
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
I am thinking that would be a great way to open up some jobs with the forest service in a hurry
Griz have no sense of humor, and if you smack one in the butt with a rubber BB, he will probably smack back much harder.
Methods that work on black bear, rubber bullets, fireworks, Karilian bear dog harrasment, electric fences work on black bears because they are not normally an agressive animal. They are going to run from you 99 times out of 100 with the exceptions of if they are wounded, starving, feel cornered or have cubs.
Griz ARE aggressive. They are the kings of the hill as far as they know, and will meet any challenge with force. They see it as a challenge to their dominance of a territory, and will do what they have to to prove they are tougher than you.
The one thing working for humans, is that most griz normally don't see humans as a threat, so will ignore them, usually.
However, if they want to go down a trail you are currently sharing, they will take the right of way. If you surprise them, they will react, normally with force.
A sow with cubs is one of the most dangerous animals on earth, period.
Then you have the bear who just woke up on the wrong side of the cave, and wants to take it out on somebody, or a young bear looking for love and being disapointed by finding a human instead of a lovely sow,<<<<<<<<<<<< or the human who stumbles on a griz's food locker and is seen as a thief>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No appeals court on that one
The last factor will apply to any griz, if they are starving, you move up on the ontree menu choices, (see the incident earlier this year just outside Yellowstone), or if they are injured and cannot get their normal food. As a griz ages and looses it's speed, reflexes, and maybe teeth, they can be pushed from their normal territory by younger stronger bears. This puts the bear at a disadvantage as it has to try and find food in a strange area, or an area with fewer resources.
When a griz is hungry, they will kill and eat just about anything.
The only thing griz respect, is something stronger than they are or more dangerous.
We had a season in Montana for griz until the 1970's, and very few incidents of bear agression. I will admit, there were fewer griz then than there are now, but they knew that humans could kill them, so they stayed out of sight.
Griz don't have the forgiving nature or oportunistic ability to adapt to living in close proximity to humans, they are dangerous and must be respected for the apex preditor they are.
I have seen too many griz at close range to EVER take them for granted. It is a truely religious experience to suddenly find that elk you were stalking is instead a fully grown griz. A quick retreat before he finds out you were looking at him from less than 30 yards is the best option, and once at a nice quiet safe place, you can take time to change your underwear
...................I've said this before, but I'll say it again:...."You really do have a "way-with-words".......always enjoy your posts.
I've highlighted in Red [color="black"]<<..>> in your post "some words" that brought back the memory of the most thrilling moment in all of my hunting experiences........and I'm taking the liberty of sharing.................not to brag......... but to honestly try any convey the moment that every hunter dreams of and how much it takes to "put down a big Grizzly (Kodiak).
Date: Nov 11, 1991....Location: Kodiak Island, AK....Weather: (lousy) temp/30F, wind/20 to 30 mph gusting, snowing.
We'd been glassing the mountain side, 1/3 mile away across Kashuyack Bay, for 4 hours ---finally we saw a bear---at about 1350 feet elevation.
(this was our 4th day of doing this and I was getting worried that I might not see one--it was very late in the season on Kodiak for a successful hunt.
My name had been on a "Cancelled-Hunt List" for 4 years and finally came to the top. There was no way I was going to pass up a "half-price" hunt".)
Jim Bailey the guide said it might be our only chance. So we crossed the bay in his boat....and started our stalk ---at sea level--up the mountain...full of Devils Club, brush, and lots of rocks and snow .....and did I mention Brush---up to 9 feet tall!!
The other guide stayed out in the boat---about 40 yards from shore and kept his binocs on the bear. We could not see the bear at all, and all we did for the next 3 hours (we started the climb at 1 p.m.) was climb & get our directions from the guy in the boat with hand signals & colored ballons (as to which way we should go & how close we were getting to the bear).
When we got the signal "TO GET READY" (we are now at about 1300' elevation)....I chambered a round (.375 H&H w/ my own handloaded 300 gr Noslers). We very slowly kept climbing and about 10 minutes passed when all of a sudden-----he (Mr Kodiak) stood up about 40 yards in front of us & growled (it turns out he was feasting on a Sitka Deer carcass & was mad as hell that "we were there".
My 1st shot missed the shoulder...but he went down & IMMEDIATELY was back up and "coming like a freight train"!!.... I got off two more shots at about 25 yards and he went down for good. (Let it be known that Bailey was on my right (I'm totally deaf in my left ear) (he was two steps back) with his .375....ready to shoot if I didn't get the job done.)
Turns out he was an 11 yr old boar---9'-3" x 9"-4" (green & fleshed). All three 300 gr Noslers got him in the chest. I would not have wanted a "lesser powerful weapon" for an angry bear of his size (about 900 lbs). He was very fat and probably 3 days or so from hibernation.
I was just a couple months shy of my 60th birthday when this occurred & every time I walk down the hall in my house........I "pat-him-on-the-head"
and think how lucky I was 20 years ago.
OK.......I'm going to bed now............thanks for listening to an "old man".
...........EDIT: ....an after thought....: For those that "look down on me"
for harvesting a Kodiak Grizzly..................Be Advised: .....Kodiak Island can only support approx 2700 bears.
Therefore the Alaska F&G strictly oversee an annual harvest of a specific numbers of bears, so as to keep a proper balance between the human population...the 12 cattle ranches on the Island and the bears. When the allotted number of bears are taken.......the season is closed. And all bears taken MUST be brought into the F&G office in the town of Kodiak to be inspected, aged and "sealed with THREE different tags" before you can leave the island. Only 300 licenses were issued ln 1991....my license # was 227 & the success rate that year was 60% if I remember correctly.
Anybody, that does not understand the careful studies of G&F and years of management, are really clueless on how our ecosystem works and the great deal of thought, planning, and execution that it takes to carefully balance it. Yet the same people will trim a tree to make it flourish.
...................I've said this before, but I'll say it again:...."You really do have a "way-with-words".......always enjoy your posts.
I've highlighted in Red [color="black"]<<..>> in your post "some words" that brought back the memory of the most thrilling moment in all of my hunting experiences........and I'm taking the liberty of sharing.................not to brag......... but to honestly try any convey the moment that every hunter dreams of and how much it takes to "put down a big Grizzly (Kodiak).
Date: Nov 11, 1991....Location: Kodiak Island, AK....Weather: (lousy) temp/30F, wind/20 to 30 mph gusting, snowing.
We'd been glassing the mountain side, 1/3 mile away across Kashuyack Bay, for 4 hours ---finally we saw a bear---at about 1350 feet elevation.
(this was our 4th day of doing this and I was getting worried that I might not see one--it was very late in the season on Kodiak for a successful hunt.
My name had been on a "Cancelled-Hunt List" for 4 years and finally came to the top. There was no way I was going to pass up a "half-price" hunt".)
Jim Bailey the guide said it might be our only chance. So we crossed the bay in his boat....and started our stalk ---at sea level--up the mountain...full of Devils Club, brush, and lots of rocks and snow .....and did I mention Brush---up to 9 feet tall!!
The other guide stayed out in the boat---about 40 yards from shore and kept his binocs on the bear. We could not see the bear at all, and all we did for the next 3 hours (we started the climb at 1 p.m.) was climb & get our directions from the guy in the boat with hand signals & colored ballons (as to which way we should go & how close we were getting to the bear).
When we got the signal "TO GET READY" (we are now at about 1300' elevation)....I chambered a round (.375 H&H w/ my own handloaded 300 gr Noslers). We very slowly kept climbing and about 10 minutes passed when all of a sudden-----he (Mr Kodiak) stood up about 40 yards in front of us & growled (it turns out he was feasting on a Sitka Deer carcass & was mad as hell that "we were there".
My 1st shot missed the shoulder...but he went down & IMMEDIATELY was back up and "coming like a freight train"!!.... I got off two more shots at about 25 yards and he went down for good. (Let it be known that Bailey was on my right (I'm totally deaf in my left ear) (he was two steps back) with his .375....ready to shoot if I didn't get the job done.)
Turns out he was an 11 yr old boar---9'-3" x 9"-4" (green & fleshed). All three 300 gr Noslers got him in the chest. I would not have wanted a "lesser powerful weapon" for an angry bear of his size (about 900 lbs). He was very fat and probably 3 days or so from hibernation.
I was just a couple months shy of my 60th birthday when this occurred & every time I walk down the hall in my house........I "pat-him-on-the-head"
and think how lucky I was 20 years ago.
OK.......I'm going to bed now............thanks for listening to an "old man".
...........EDIT: ....an after thought....: For those that "look down on me"
for harvesting a Kodiak Grizzly..................Be Advised: .....Kodiak Island can only support approx 2700 bears.
Therefore the Alaska F&G strictly oversee an annual harvest of a specific numbers of bears, so as to keep a proper balance between the human population...the 12 cattle ranches on the Island and the bears. When the allotted number of bears are taken.......the season is closed. And all bears taken MUST be brought into the F&G office in the town of Kodiak to be inspected, aged and "sealed with THREE different tags" before you can leave the island. Only 300 licenses were issued ln 1991....my license # was 227 & the success rate that year was 60% if I remember correctly.
You are too kind Montana Griz, Thank you.
I would like to commend your intestinal fortitude in facing down a bear that size. The ones I see are the smaller variety we have here, and a 500 lb griz is good sized, not huge, but good sized.
Your story, combined with my experiences were good for raising the hair on the back of my neck!!
I used to pack into Hell Roaring in the Absarokee Mountains for the early elk hunt. Bears of all kinds were wall to wall, but since my last trip in there in the late 1980's, it has gotten much worse. My brother went in there 2 years ago looking for Bighorn Sheep, and the griz scat was on every trail, trees were marked, every rock was turned over, every dead tree was torn up. As griz are the big boys at the bar, they will chase or kill black bears to get them out of their territory, so that means all the sign was probably griz.
(Black bear scat usally has chokecherry pits, grass and other vegetable matter, griz scat has little bells in it and smells like pepper spray...)
I haven't had the opportunity to hunt griz, or kodiak, but would like to. I love to hunt black bear, (they make GREAT Canadian Bacon and the best Pepperoni I have ever tasted ), but I was too young to hunt the season before it closed in the 70s.
I keep running into them as I spend an inordinant amount of time on the backside of nowhere chasing other critters.
I have nothing but respect for griz. They are tough, smart and strong, and live in some of the most adverse conditions and magnificent country on the face of this earth. They fear nothing, and walk with pride, striding across the mountains like the true wilderness lords they are.
I would love to have the opportunity to match myself with them as you did, but the current political climate makes that doubtful where politics and emotion trump science and common sense.
I guess I will just have to content myself with hunting canadian wolves, which I have no respect for, for now, and hope I am still able to go if the season for griz ever opens again.
My wife (the She-Bear) had believed since we were dating that I would end up as griz chow because of my habit of crossing paths with them
If that does happen, I plan to do my very best to at least give them the worst indigestion ever!! LOL!!
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