Moving to Noxon MT Area (Thompson Falls, Trout Creek: power lines, rental, mortgage)

[Tuck's Dad]

We are planning on moving to the Noxon, Montana area next summer. I have some questions about the move that I hope some here on the forum can answer. We have purchased our land, are planning on building ~1600 sq/ft housenext summer.

Phone and internet:
I get ATT phone reception in the area we plan to build our house, andwill likely keep that service. We willneed internet and satellite TV – I am assuming cable does not exist in the area(too small of a population base). So to the questions
- Am I better off buying myinternet services separate from a bundled TV services?
- If I bundle satellite internetand TV services, how fast are down loads and streaming services?
- Is it worth the money to get asignal amplification device for the house? For the car? (FYI: I get 3-4 bars at the proposed house site,but have 4G service and do use the phone extensively for internet search ande-mail)

Utilities and services:
- What are electric rates forthe area? (We have electricity to theproperty, so it’s the actual rates I want to know about)
- Is solar a viable andefficient option? (I am assuming no,because of how far north it is, but would like a local opinion)
- Are there many electrical serviceinterruptions, and if so, how often and how long (duration) do you experience serviceinterruption?

Gas (LP or Natural):
- What are the costs for LP gas? (Assuming it’s sold PCM or PCF witheither a tank purchase or tank rental as part of the cost)
- Is this cheaper, more expensive, or about the same as costs using electricity for heating?

Trash:
- Is there a local dump? Location?[/SIZE][/font]
- Are there limits (time,season, etc.) on outdoor burning of paper product trash?[/SIZE][/font]

General construction questions:
We will be building a stick built home with 2x6 exterior walls. Looked into logs, and timber/post and beam,and construction costs per sq ft were way too high for our budget.
- What R-value for insulation isnormal for the area? Recommended R-valuefor walls? Roof?
- Is it worth it to contract afull basement? Crawl space? Floating slab?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

[Clark Fork Fantast]

Welcome to the C-D Forum, and to the Montana forum! I'm not sure how helpful I can be, because we're not actually in Noxon, we are building a retirement home in Clark Fork just across the Idaho border. Some of your questions I believe were already answered in a previous thread about Heron, just west of Noxon, so you may want to do a search on "Heron." We have at least two posters who live in Heron, but I don't think we have anyone living in Noxon.

A few things I do know:

• Yes, there is a dump in Noxon, on Government Mountain Road.
• With the big cell tower in Noxon you may not need a signal amplifier. 3-4 bars is very good for the area, and you should be able to get 4G if you're within proximity of the tower. We get 4G and 3 bars up on River Road in Clark Fork, but just down the road on our property we merely get 1-2 bars and IX coverage, if at all.
• Solar can absolutely be done if you're thinking of it as a supplement, there's plenty of sunlight (and long daylight hours) in the summer. But in winter it doesn't do you much good.
• Heating: I don't know anybody in the area who uses exclusively gas or electricity for heating. Everybody has a wood stove or fireplace.
• Construction: If you really want logs, or timberframe, there are builders in the area who will work with you to keep the costs down. There is a log home construction company in Clark Fork, on River Road, which has a good reputation. We're doing a hybrid timberframe construction. Do allow yourself some timberframe or log features, it will make a huge difference. You don't have to go all out, just have your builder add some beams in strategic spots. (Unless you're an all-or-nothing purist! )
• I had to look up the R-value concept, but I'm sure every builder will recommend the highest value. Our roof has multiple layers of insulation--that's not overkill, it's an absolute necessity.
• It seems that most people have a crawl space that's considerably taller than what is customary elsewhere. Our crawl space is 4 ft below ground, 2 ft above. I only know of one family who has a complete basement. Slabs are mostly for pole barns, as far as I know. You may want to build one of those, anyway. We were going with a slab for the house, but were quickly persuaded by our builder to go with a crawl space.

Congrats on having bought property in one of the most beautiful areas of the entire Northwest!

[Tuck's Dad]

So we now have a floor plan and are working the materialslist. Construction costs are going to beabout $138 per foot. That soundsreasonable, as here in HI typically costs are closer to $300-$350 per squarefoot and that’s at builder grade interiors, but anybody who's built up thereplease let me know if $138 per sq/ft is high, low, or about right for mid toupper grade construction project.

Clark Fork Fantast what was your builder's reasons forrecommending a crawlspace vs. floating slab? We have lived in slab homes in the SW, and I know they do them in AK,and MN (my sister owned one). We areconsidering a slab with an integrated radiant heat system for the house (we arealso looking at crawlspace foundation with integrated radiant heat), and wouldbe interested to hear why your builder felt crawlspace was preferred.

Hoping to start the project this spring, but we may beputting more cash into it than I had hoped, because comps in the area are relativelylimited

[historyfan]

That seems rather low. I would think closer to $200.

Have YOUR attorney prepare the contract that you & builder sign. That should assure you some recourse if you get shoddy workmanship or left with a half done poorly constructed house and a bunch of subcontractor liens on your house and no money left in your original budget. Bills were submitted for subs' work but money went into general's pocket instead. This has happened to many unsuspecting people. Change orders for everything imaginable (that was not fully spelled out) are one of common schemes to run the project over budget.

Cement slab construction will eventually require a jackhammer to repair a later date plumbing issue. I am a believer in basement utilities if site water table allows it.

Good luck.

[Clark Fork Fantast]

Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad

So we now have a floor plan and are working the materialslist. Construction costs are going to beabout $138 per foot. That soundsreasonable, as here in HI typically costs are closer to $300-$350 per squarefoot and that’s at builder grade interiors, but anybody who's built up thereplease let me know if $138 per sq/ft is high, low, or about right for mid toupper grade construction project.

Clark Fork Fantast what was your builder's reasons forrecommending a crawlspace vs. floating slab? We have lived in slab homes in the SW, and I know they do them in AK,and MN (my sister owned one). We areconsidering a slab with an integrated radiant heat system for the house (we arealso looking at crawlspace foundation with integrated radiant heat), and wouldbe interested to hear why your builder felt crawlspace was preferred.

Hoping to start the project this spring, but we may beputting more cash into it than I had hoped, because comps in the area are relativelylimited

Glad to hear it's happening! Are you on the north or south side of the river?

Our builder recommended a crawl space partly because we wanted to be up higher than ground level, so we've got 4 ft underground and 2 ft above ground, like I mentioned earlier; besides, the plumbing goes through the crawlspace, deep enough to be below the frost level. I'd hate to have to break up the slab to get at the plumbing!!! Our water heater will be down there, too, and some electrical stuff. Plus a bunch of spiders, I'm sure . It just seems traditional in the area; everybody has crawlspaces, unless they have small cabins on concrete blocks (which we will also have at some point, a little guest log cabin ).

There's a hardware store in Noxon, but I don't know about their inventory; the Ace Hardware in Clark Fork is pretty well stocked. We get our building materials from Sandpoint Building Supply (on 95 in Ponderay) which is a terrific and very friendly place. It may be worth your while to drive over there and take a look, unless you can find the equivalent or better in Trout Creek or Thompson Falls--I wouldn't know about that.

[Tuck's Dad]

Clark Fork Fantast - We have 4 acres on the Bull River (access actually, not waterfront) about mile marker 2 on MT Hwy 56 - north of MT Hwy 200 obviously. Beautiful little valley area sandwiched between the mountains. I have been to Noxon proper a couple of times, but I expect we'll do a weekly run to Sandpoint, and a monthly run to Spokane or Coure D'Alene. I have also been to Sandpoint building Supply and the guys were great helping me with questions etc.

I think we may need to go with a crawl space, but I am still gathering information. We originally thought to do a full basement, but every one I have talked to from the area gave me a confused "Why would you do that?" sort of response, so I guess unlike my home state of MN, basements are somewhat rare up there.

History fan - I was actually expecting it to come in at about $150 a sq/ft, so the $138 isn't raising any flags too me, but I wanted a local opinion. I am assuming labor costs are significantly lower than what we have here. Also, we are doing a stick built project, and it's realatively tame (~1600 sq/ft). The Post and Beam and Log companies were way too expensive for our budget (started at $400k and went up quickly for 1600-1800 sq/ft), and I am trying to keep all living expenses and mortgage costs below my pension so I don't have to work. Good suggestion on the lawyer, I will make sure the contract is set up to protect us from graft/bad construction.

[historyfan]

I'd vote for unfinished basement or part unfinished if the water table allows for it because it will give you more space in liveable part when you locate heating/cooling unit, hot water tank etc in basement. If you are using radiant heat system having easy access will be important.

As an aside, you are locating in an area with cheap firewood so have an auxiliary wood stove to supplement or act as backup if power fails during winter. A wood stove in the basement is a swell thing in coldest winter months.

I hate being negative about contractors because many are swell. Having a solid contract you paid to have prepared will save you when completion dates are not met...or prevent your general from getting a case of the slows. I would get references and go in person to ask if everything was okey dokey. People will be more apt to give you straight scoop in person.

Enjoy your retirement in Montana.

[Tuck's Dad]

The house design has a centrally located fireplace (real one, not gas insert). Will that be enough as an auxillary heat source, or should we look at a stove instead? We have a floor plan, but have not had it engineered/material spec'ed yet, so we have options to still make changes without change costs.

We have also spec'ed a 10KW LP generator as part of the project. I wasn't sure how often the electric went out, but am pretty sure it won't be a high priority to fix it in such a sparsley populated area like it would be in large metropolitan areas, so I figure we need to be ready to be on our own for power and heat for up to 10 days.

We are in that small finger of zone 6 climate (CT winter, not MN winter) because of the water eco systems in the area, so I am expecting 4 complete seasons with a real winter, but not the bone chilling cold of my home state.

[historyfan]

Consider it growing zone 5 at best. The extension folks say nothing in Montana is better than zone 4b. You can luck into a micro climate that will boost 1/2 notch. If out of the North wind then winter chill will not be as brutal.

Build for extreme snowloads so you never ever have a problem or need remove snow from the roof.

Fireplace with glass doors will be fine for 1600 sq ft well insulated home. A woodstove of quality will hold fire for more hours unattended, hence their popularity.

Generators to pump water for the bathroom and keep refrigerator & freezer going will make life easier in power outage. It is always prudent to have two weeks min of food & necessities like Rxs & also some big jugs of drinking water stored in pantry. Your pump could get knocked out in power surge or some strange power flux. Besides ice storms and high winds, forest fires can take out power lines.

[Clark Fork Fantast]

Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad

Clark Fork Fantast - We have 4 acres on the Bull River (access actually, not waterfront) about mile marker 2 on MT Hwy 56 - north of MT Hwy 200 obviously. Beautiful little valley area sandwiched between the mountains. I have been to Noxon proper a couple of times, but I expect we'll do a weekly run to Sandpoint, and a monthly run to Spokane or Coure D'Alene. I have also been to Sandpoint building Supply and the guys were great helping me with questions etc.

I think we may need to go with a crawl space, but I am still gathering information. We originally thought to do a full basement, but every one I have talked to from the area gave me a confused "Why would you do that?" sort of response, so I guess unlike my home state of MN, basements are somewhat rare up there.

History fan - I was actually expecting it to come in at about $150 a sq/ft, so the $138 isn't raising any flags too me, but I wanted a local opinion. I am assuming labor costs are significantly lower than what we have here. Also, we are doing a stick built project, and it's realatively tame (~1600 sq/ft). The Post and Beam and Log companies were way too expensive for our budget (started at $400k and went up quickly for 1600-1800 sq/ft), and I am trying to keep all living expenses and mortgage costs below my pension so I don't have to work. Good suggestion on the lawyer, I will make sure the contract is set up to protect us from graft/bad construction.

Somewhere around here? (Picture below) Just to make you feel homesick. Route 56 is one of our favorite late afternoon drives. That's Billiard Table Mountain in the background. You've picked one of the prettiest areas in all of NW MT! I think I mentioned earlier that you can add some timberframe or log accents without it costing a fortune--a couple of beams in the ceiling, a post by the kitchen counter, that sort of thing. It really makes a difference. I'll ask our builder what he thinks of the $138.

We're going with a wood stove, but our place is smaller, 1100 sq ft including a loft. There's very little heat loss with a wood stove, and you do lose some heat just going up the chimney in a fireplace. But the fireplace look is spectacular, of course.

What kind of roof are you planning on? Just make sure it's overengineered, like historyfan says.

A generator is a good idea. We're going exclusively with a generator for the the first few years--it would cost $7000 to get power to the place just from the neighbor's property. That was a nasty surprise!

One thing you have to find out is whether you're covered by the Noxon Fire District. I assume you are, but if you should happen to be outside of their area, they may offer a protection plan. That's what we have in Clark Fork (Idaho laws, but it may be the same in MT).