Why? (camps, live, cost)

[lorelei2873]

Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan

I wonder what this support you see for gov't schools would be if parent(s)/guardian(s) could take both their child and the money being spent on the child in the gov't school system and spend this money where they wanted to instead of having no choice in the matter, as is currently the case?

Actually, I have no viewpoint on it because it hasn't been a large topic of discussion in our state.

I'm a huge believer in economics so I believe that if there were a demand for this "product," more people would be talking about it in our state. I know it's a huge topic nationally but it's just not something you see in the news here.

On a totally reflective and not indicating any viewpoint note, I do wonder though if it would work as well here because of the rural nature of our state and the areas where there are barely enough students to fill a public school. Also, growing up in a class B town, I realized that the #1 uniting community factor was the school and support for the students and the sports teams. That's just what I experienced in a little town though...things could be totally different in Billings, Great Falls, etc. Maybe there are some great ideas out there for a good system to which I'm just not privvy. Off the top of my head, my largest concern would be logistical. I don't have any moral or political feelings yet about the idea of public/private schools and voucher systems. I'm really the type of person that believes you should really research an issue before drawing conclusions, and I haven't done that on this issue.

But, then again, I work in higher education, and that is a choice system, and yes, I do see a lot of public support for it. I also see a ton of support for the public K-12 schools in Helena through great organizations like Helena Education Foundation. Oh, and to be very clear, when I say "support," I don't necessarily mean financial issues only. I think support means having pride, taking an interest in what's going on, being glad you have something in your community, giving to foundations, volunteering, and showing enthusiasm for the students and teachers.

Mr. Greenspan, I think we may be arguing two different points because we have not defined "support" the same. Just as being supportive as a husband or wife means more than paying the bills, "support" for education is more than just throwing money at the system. In a perfect world, support would mean nuturing relationships between teachers and students, parents and teachers, and schools and the community...finding out what unites us, not what divides us, and working from our strengths and shared goals as community stakeholders.

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by lorelei2873

Actually, I have no viewpoint on it because it hasn't been a large topic of discussion in our state.

I would not expect that an employee of a gov't school district to be aware that this is a hot topic in Montana, with heated discussion on several Libertarian Montana blogs.

[mikeydoo21]

politics will destroy the whole earth one day.need to worry more about what is happening with your self and helping each other out in life.to many people try to tell every one else how to live and are more screwed up than they are or at least no better

[lorelei2873]

Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan

I would not expect that an employee of a gov't school district to be aware that this is a hot topic in Montana, with heated discussion on several Libertarian Montana blogs.

I am a part-time employee of the university system during the fall and spring. I am also in the service industry. In addition, I own a small business. I was recently a department manager for a private firm until I decided to go back to graduate school. I am many things. But, most of all I am a Montanan. I grew up in a small town and have watched all sorts of people coming in wanting to make our state a haven for this or that in terms of politics. Don't stereotype my occupation. Would you expect a small business owner to be aware about some obscure blogs? How about a bartender? Do you have the capacity to debate using logic or examples? I'd love to engage in that sort of thing with you.

And just exactly how much of the popular vote did the Libertarians carry in our last general election? I think you proved my outlier point from the previous post. Hot topic for a very small percentage is what it seems like to me. I like a lot of Libertarian ideals. They're just not mainstream right now. PERIOD. They're not. They're cool, but they're just not what average people sit around and talk about between fishing, taking care of their kids, and work. Most moms in the grocery store aren't hitting Libertarian blogs in their free time.

It seems to me that some people can't separate themselves from politics and just be people. It makes me really sad, actually. I am crying as I write this. What happened to people? Why people can't just be people? Nice people? People who care about each other and their neighbors? What's happening here?!

[Klapton]

Originally Posted by lorelei2873

I am a part-time employee of the university system during the fall and spring. I am also in the service industry. In addition, I own a small business. I was recently a department manager for a private firm until I decided to go back to graduate school. I am many things. But, most of all I am a Montanan. I grew up in a small town and have watched all sorts of people coming in wanting to make our state a haven for this or that in terms of politics. Don't stereotype my occupation. Would you expect a small business owner to be aware about some obscure blogs? How about a bartender? Do you have the capacity to debate using logic or examples? I'd love to engage in that sort of thing with you.

And just exactly how much of the popular vote did the Libertarians carry in our last general election? I think you proved my outlier point from the previous post. Hot topic for a very small percentage is what it seems like to me. I like a lot of Libertarian ideals. They're just not mainstream right now. PERIOD. They're not. They're cool, but they're just not what average people sit around and talk about between fishing, taking care of their kids, and work. Most moms in the grocery store aren't hitting Libertarian blogs in their free time.

It seems to me that some people can't separate themselves from politics and just be people. It makes me really sad, actually. I am crying as I write this. What happened to people? Why people can't just be people? Nice people? People who care about each other and their neighbors? What's happening here?!

One thing that is happening is that government has been gradually creeping more and more into our lives over the past decades. What that means from a Libertarian perspective is that more and more things are being forced on us, and more and more of our wealth and property is being taken from us. More and more we are feeling the pain of it.

So, how does this increase political polarity among every-day people?

Well, as government consumes more of society, and uses those resources to FORCE things on everyone else, people become more and more angry and focused on THEIR agenda gaining control of that stolen wealth and government power. In other words, the stakes are getting higher all the time. The reward of being the winner of the politics game is getting bigger and bigger. And the penalty for losing the politics game is getting worse and worse.

If we had a smaller government, that focused on a few REALLY important things that both Left and Right can agree on, and left all the other stuff to private citizens to do voluntarily through charity, education, etc... Then we wouldn't have this polarity.

So, what sort of things to Left and Right both agree on? Well, being invaded by foreigners would suck for both Liberals and Conservatives, so national defense is a good one. Both Liberals and Conservatives agree that having their kid snatched from a playground, their car hijacked, or their house broken into sucks. So fighting crime (preferably the REAL ones with actual victims) is a good one. Busting an axle on a giant pothole sucks whether your are Left or Right, so roads and infrastructure is a pretty good one. Some folks might come up with others, I'm sure.

But if we simply gave up on the idea of using government FORCE (taxing people then spending the money on our agenda) for anything that both sides can't agree on... Then the bickering would cease.

(It's also worth noting that if the government were smaller and weaker, and only focused on those few REALLY important things, corruption would be greatly decreased, because big business, unions, etc. would not bother bribing politicians simply because it would be a bad investment.)

EDIT: This relates to my earlier post, where I said that many places where government taxation and meddling are overbearing, the people tend to be overbearing in their political rantings too. The bigger the pile of money and power that is at stake (the overall size and power of government) the more nasty people will be in their fight to gain control of it for THEIR "side."

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by lorelei2873

It seems to me that some people can't separate themselves from politics and just be people.

You come across as a run of the mill secular-progressive-liberal, who claims that her views are not political, when they definitely are political; and, hypocritically views everyone who disagrees with her so-called non-political political views for having political views.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by Klapton

[snippola]
EDIT: This relates to my earlier post, where I said that many places where government taxation and meddling are overbearing, the people tend to be overbearing in their political rantings too. The bigger the pile of money and power that is at stake (the overall size and power of government) the more nasty people will be in their fight to gain control of it for THEIR "side."

Really good points. And I think this, more than liberal or conservative or Californian or Montana or whatever, is the defining point. Has some other group been empowered by the growth of gov't, and subsequently taken away some of your rights or property?

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by Reziac

Really good points. And I think this, more than liberal or conservative or Californian or Montana or whatever, is the defining point. Has some other group been empowered by the growth of gov't, and subsequently taken away some of your rights or property?

Au contraire, it is the secular-liberal-progressive goal to secure group, not individual, rights from an ever-growing gov't, that, by their nature, means that the gov't will take away from some groups to give to other groups.

[Klapton]

Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan

Au contraire, it is the secular-liberal-progressive goal to secure group, not individual, rights from an ever-growing gov't, that, by their nature, means that the gov't will take away from some groups to give to other groups.

That is correct. HOWEVER -- the Republican Party, which is SUPPOSED to be "conservative" in the manner you describe, is NOT. All too often, they SAY some conservative-sounding things to dupe the conservative population, and then do the exact same things the Democrats do. The only difference is which people get the kick-backs. Add in the "lesser of two evils" crap, and conservatives keep voting for FAKE conservatives, desperately trying to keep the liberals out.

It's depressing.

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by Klapton

It's depressing.

Very.