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Portland is very urban. In fact, when I visited, I learned a fun fact about the city planners who laid out the downtown. They figured that corner real estate would be worth more than mid-block real estate. So they designed really short blocks to double the amount of corner real estate (i.e. twice as many blocks per mile as in a typical Midwestern city like Chicago). As a result, Portland's downtown feels very walkable.
But even in Portland and Chicago, I think pretty much everyone who lives outside of the downtown core has a car -- and even some who live in the downtown core own cars to get outside of the city on the weekends, or in Chicago get to distant corners of Chicagoland.
By the way, I was not a fan of the Chicago metro system. It was a huge hassle and a long time getting in from the airport to downtown. But Chicago does have a great BUS system - particularly on Michigan Avenue, where the buses run frequently, the drivers are friendly and the buses are in good condition.
You need to to be very careful when reviewing Portland's urban infrastructure, or anything about PDX for that matter. Visiting and living here are two very different experiences. The walkable blocks you speak of are very tiresome. It means a 4 way intersection every few feet and makes getting anywhere tiresome. Always waiting for a crossing light really gets olds. Really the streets are ridiculously close and way to many for such a small downtown. It is extremely densely packed in here due to a mandatory growth boundary. Im from the Boston area and in many ways feel more crammed in here. Its a stange crowded feel that feels like there are alot more than a 2 million metro pop here.
Portland does not want us to own a car period and they make it obvious. Limited parking in residences even in suburbs. Intentionally building housing/condos with not enough parking for all units, again even in the suburbs. Yes we have extensive transit but we also have social problems in high order, you must have seen our massive homeless problems. We don't fund schools either, and have some of the highest unemployment even in good times. Not much interest in attracting meaningful employers here. Many work restaurant jobs and beg for spare change in this town or collect food stamps. The Oregon Trail Welfare card.
Portland will spend tons of money Federal included, but will not put a cent into the society problems I mentioned. That is why I said you have to be careful when reviewing Portland, because it gives a phoney portrayal of itself. Portland is fun to visit and has alot of good points, but living here can take on a totally different feel.
Im not sure Nashville could ever catch up to its growing population if transit was put in place. Id like to say it could but it takes years to build a system. PDX started in 1986 or 88 and its still being built. Perhaps Nashville should invest in an extensive Commuter rail system, and not so much in Light Rail as PDX has done. If not that then a very extensive and affordable bus system with decent schedules.
You need to to be very careful when reviewing Portland's urban infrastructure, or anything about PDX for that matter. Visiting and living here are two very different experiences.
You might want to read what he posted again. He was careful and he was specific. Relax and don't give him such a hard time.
You might want to read what he posted again. He was careful and he was specific. Relax and don't give him such a hard time.
I'm not giving anyone a bad time. That is what is deceiving with the internet and this website. To much sarcasm and bickering. I merely told him what it is like to visit and live in Portland, no reference what so ever to faulting him. I don't know any other way to put it. My commentary had nothing to do with the person personally.
I lived in Portland for 5 years and Chicago for 10, and I live in Nashville, now.
Regarding Portland, almost everyone who lives there likes it. The light rail works; the city is walkable; traffic is manageable; it's extremely bike friendly. People want to move there because planning (and mother nature) have created such an attractive place to live.
Regarding Chicago, I never owed a car, nor did most of my friends, and we never wanted one. In the suburbs, most people own car, sure, but a large percentage don't use them to commute. Instead, they use Chicago's Metra heavy rail and keep untold millions of cars off the road each year.
Regarding time and transportation in Nashville: Public transportation is about creating a livable community in the medium to long term. You build the rail while land is relatively cheap and density is low. The rail line spurs efficient, dense growth, saving money on highways, local roads, putting in a maintaining new utilities, environmental costs, and so on. I saw this happen in Portland. People still build in the suburbs, but less. Cars still drive downtown, but less. People still get stuck in traffic. but less. Everyone wins.
Regarding cost and public transportation: All transportation infrastructure is expensive. But the cost of roads is mostly hidden because it's financed through state and federal taxes and utility bills. If we were to pay, out of pocket, the true cost of highways, local roads and far-flung neighborhood infrastructure each time we got in the car, we'd be shocked - and angry.
If there were a light rail line running between West End and NE, Nashville would be the magic city of the East, like Portland is in the West, within 20 years. People would continue to be drawn here for the high quality of life. Without it, we'll be just another gridlocked, car lot city. For a look at Nashville's future without public transportation, just go to ATL, or Charlotte. What a shame.
"If there were a light rail line running between West End and NE, Nashville would be the magic city of the East, like Portland is in the West, within 20 years. People would continue to be drawn here for the high quality of life. Without it, we'll be just another gridlocked, car lot city. For a look at Nashville's future without public transportation, just go to ATL, or Charlotte. What a shame."
I'm inclined to agree. I'm also a little biased: I've been legally blind my whole life, and glasses/contacts don't help. While I've always pushed forward and achieved everything my fully sighted counterparts were able to achieve (short of flying a plane or driving a car),* I've had to rely on family, friends, public transportation, or my feet to get around. I lived in Boston for three years, and one reason I loved the city so much was because for the first time in my life, I could go anywhere and do anything without a loved one's help.
I had freedom.
While I'll be the first to admit that Boston's system is sometimes, er, lacking, I can't deny that I love it.
*Upon moving to Nashville, I actually took a carry permit class just to see if I could do it. There's a lot I can't see, but I also know what I can, so I wouldn't have done it if I didn't think it would be safe. My husband and I both have permits we'll probably never use now, but I also have the joy of knowing I shot a little better than he did.
First, concerning density...Nashville has a consolidated government so its city limits take up a lot more space than most and include vast swaths of undeveloped hill country to the west of the city. The vast majority of the population is concentrated along the corridors these trains would run. (Gallatin Rd to the North, Lebanon Rd to the east, Nolensville and Murfreesboro roads to the south and Charlotte Pike to the west)
Second, the bus isn't the train. I know many who say they would gladly ride a frequent light rail train but would never dream of using the bus. There's a huge perception issue.
Also, the music city star is very limited in its scope. The Eastern Suburbs are only the 4th most populated suburban county and if those suburbanites don't work downtown, there's not a huge reason to ride the Star. It's a niche market.
I think light rail is still a good investment for the future of this city.
In regards to light rail, personally I don't see the benefit in a place like Nashville. Sure, it looks cool, but it would have to involve completely new lines, and it would be rather expensive for the benefit I think we would see out of it. While a Downtown-West End circuit sounds like such a sexy thing, I truly wonder how many people would actually use it. At this time, we don't have nearly the CBD population to support such a thing. I would rather work on BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) in these more congested areas than embark on a potentially costly (and risky) light rail network. Bus lines give you far more flexibility, especially if the growth patterns change over the years (say, for instance, a large amount of new growth happens on Main St. rather than West End. Build a new rail line? Why not just switch the bus routes to take care of the growing area?)
In regards to heavy rail...I think this is something Nashville should seriously consider. Although the Music City Star has had a lukewarm reception...let's be honest, it caters to the 9th and 10th largest suburbs (Lebanon and Mount Juliet) and not nearly the most populated section of Davidson County (Donelson/Hermitage). Plus, the traffic problems on I-40 aren't as bad as those on I-24 for the southeast commuters, or I-65 for the northern commuters.
To me, it makes the most sense to put a heavy rail line down the I-24 corridor to Rutherford County. It's the longest commute, the most heavily populated suburban county (Rutherford) and the most heavily populated section of Davidson County (Antioch area).
Second on the list should be the Sumner County line. Sumner County has one of the highest percentages as well as raw number of commuters of any county in the metro.
Even though Williamson County is higher in population than Sumner, I think the income levels along with the high number of jobs in the county will mean that there is less potential for a really successful rail commuter line here. The number of people who commute to Williamson County poses an interesting problem for the commuter rail....since a lot of these lines will probably be one way in the beginning, the high numbers of jobs in the Brentwood and Cool Springs areas could actually mean the opportunity for a morning train to Williamson County.
Of course, I think in order for ANY of this to work, there must be the proper bus infrastructure at each of these rail stops. I think the only way you're going to get people to really use this system is if there is very prompt bus service to a variety of locations in the area. Essentially, each rail stop needs to become a mini-bus hub...to ferry people to and from the train stations. Obviously major employers should be stops along the route...but also key neighborhoods.
This would have to bring a change from the current MTA system, where the vast majority of buses head for the central station, with routes resembling the spokes of the wheel, but not the wheel itself. There need to be more cross town routes, and possibly cross city routes (A Franklin to Murfreesboro Express, a Murfreesboro to Lebanon Express, a Lebanon to Gallatin Express, a Gallatin to Springfield Express, and so on and so on).
We do have to face the reality that Nashville is by and large a low density city compared to many others its size...but this doesn't mean we have to have inferior transportation options...they just need to be more fit for our local needs. Right now you sort of have a chicken and egg sort of argument. Public transportation ridership isn't very high...so it's hard to justify spending hundreds of millions of dollars to overhaul the system. But at the same time, ridership isn't high because of the limitations of the current system (especially in the more suburban areas). It's hard to ride the bus when the bus doesn't go within 2 miles of your house or work, and it's hard to ride if there are only 2-4 times for that particular route each day. And it's hard to ride a bus on a 10 mile route (non-Express) if it stops 20 times in the process. I think we need a more complex, comprehensive, layered approach to public transportation. Utilizing trains for the 30+ mile suburban routes, double buses for the high traffic 10-15 mile BRT routes, regular buses for most 5 mile routes, and shuttle buses for the mini hub short 1-2 mile routes.
In regards to heavy rail...I think this is something Nashville should seriously consider. Although the Music City Star has had a lukewarm reception...let's be honest, it caters to the 9th and 10th largest suburbs (Lebanon and Mount Juliet) and not nearly the most populated section of Davidson County (Donelson/Hermitage). Plus, the traffic problems on I-40 aren't as bad as those on I-24 for the southeast commuters, or I-65 for the northern commuters.
To me, it makes the most sense to put a heavy rail line down the I-24 corridor to Rutherford County. It's the longest commute, the most heavily populated suburban county (Rutherford) and the most heavily populated section of Davidson County (Antioch area).
Second on the list should be the Sumner County line. Sumner County has one of the highest percentages as well as raw number of commuters of any county in the metro.
Even though Williamson County is higher in population than Sumner, I think the income levels along with the high number of jobs in the county will mean that there is less potential for a really successful rail commuter line here. The number of people who commute to Williamson County poses an interesting problem for the commuter rail....since a lot of these lines will probably be one way in the beginning, the high numbers of jobs in the Brentwood and Cool Springs areas could actually mean the opportunity for a morning train to Williamson County.
Of course, I think in order for ANY of this to work, there must be the proper bus infrastructure at each of these rail stops. I think the only way you're going to get people to really use this system is if there is very prompt bus service to a variety of locations in the area. Essentially, each rail stop needs to become a mini-bus hub...to ferry people to and from the train stations. Obviously major employers should be stops along the route...but also key neighborhoods.
This would have to bring a change from the current MTA system, where the vast majority of buses head for the central station, with routes resembling the spokes of the wheel, but not the wheel itself. There need to be more cross town routes, and possibly cross city routes (A Franklin to Murfreesboro Express, a Murfreesboro to Lebanon Express, a Lebanon to Gallatin Express, a Gallatin to Springfield Express, and so on and so on).
I don't mean to bust your bubble but commuter rail is not a form of heavy rail. Sorry. But mind you, I do agree with your concept on what commuter rail should do down there.
One thing about light rail is that it tends to spawn development, just like it did 100 years ago. Back then, there was a lot of commercial development around streetcar stops which we can sometimes still see today when every few blocks or so there's a sudden, quaint commercial area amidst residential neighborhoods; invariably that's where there used to be a streetcar stop. The same would happen today. As more and more people get used to the idea of hopping on a streetcar to get to work/go to the movies/etc, there will be denser developments along streetcar lines, both commercial and residential.
Every time I visit Salt Lake City I am just stunned at how well their light rail system is working. It's packed, and the system is constantly expanding. Light rail is wildly popular out there, and I am convinced it could be wildly popular in Nashville, too. The light rail system in SLC connects downtown, the university, the NBA arena, shopping areas, and various suburbs and in-town neighborhoods. Nashville's could be very similar.
It won't be cheap, but neither are roads. And there comes a point when we can't widen roads or highways anymore. Light rail and heavy rail will have to be built eventually, and now is just as good a time as any to get it started.
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its - possession
it's - contraction of it is
your - possession
you're - contraction of you are
their - possession
they're - contraction of they are
there - referring to a place
loose - opposite of tight
lose - opposite of win
who's - contraction of who is
whose - possession
alot - NOT A WORD
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Portland & Chi show what can be done
