Christie gets victory in case challenging pension law (price, shop)
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#89 Today, 07:20 AM [SIZE=5]marc515[/SIZE]
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Originally Posted by tom1944 Marc- I have no issue with plans changing for new employees and I can see changing the COLA for me since I have not retired but it is unfair to take it away from someone who is already retired.
Tom,...I'm not saying we should take any benefits away from retirees, but what is wrong with them sharing the cost of healthcare like most everyone else does?
These types of benefits are why many states/municipalities are in trouble. Politicians made promises which are simply unrealistic.
My health benefits in retirement are $300/month and it increases every year; I consider myself lucky as many are paying considerably more.
Why should state governmrnts provide free health care for life? it's simply unsustainable.
Why should state governments reimbursement for medicare part B? The rationale is because these state governmrnts mandate that retirees enroll in medicare part B, but realistically, many if not most retirees would enroll in medicare part B just like federal retirees do.
These types of benefits come at a cost, and since state governments have no profits, they must continually raise taxes, and there are too many out here who are beeing squeezed to the limit paying taxes. With the economy the way it is today, every increase in taxes takes something away from their disposable income- food, etc.
So again, I don't want the benefits they earned taken away, all I would like to see is some cost sharing.
Marc's points are right on the money. Years ago when our politicians and union leaders worked out these "DEALS" no one aware how broken this state pension system really was. Alot of fat cats got very rich on the taxpayers dime and we have now reached a point where something needs to be done about it. No state worker should be getting FREE benefits for life. Everyone in the private sector is paying into their benefits, so should all the state workers as well. And NO ONE should be grandfathered in. Stop the B.S.
Wrong again Captain Check the Heritage Foundations list of countries ranked for economic freedom and then compare their health care systems, You can do so on Wikipedia and if you can follow the footnoted links for more detail.
tom, you seem to be incapable of making clear points and you dont know how to properly present facts. just say what you want to say.
You constantly point out that our HC system is too expensive, doesn't always get the greatest results and is inefficient. So we have a (mostly) private HC system. Privatization is what's broken. Medicare and the VA system are run with much less overhead than what United Health & CIGNA can provide.
The system is busted, but it's not the govt. ones.
We do not have, and have never had, private health insurance. It is a mixed and broken system with oppressive collectivism and government involvement and regulation at every step of the "market". And each government involvement leads to higher and higher costs, because, as usual, what belongs to no one, belongs to everyone, with the concomitant lack of market forces to regulate pricing and availability.
The argument is not whether to have socialized medicine. We already have it. It's just a matter of degree and implementation. We don't need to "go back" to private health care, we need to discover it.
And can we stop with the phony statistics about health care "over there"? People with an agenda always look at European panaceas and sell them as a cure, rather than the disease they truly are. European and Canadian health care sucks, plain and simple, and is not a goal that we should be reducing ourselves to meet.
In fact, we do not need a health care "system" at all. We need private doctors selling their services to private citizens. We need private insurers selling their products to private citizens. And we need the government and its collectivistic and destructive tentacles to get out of the process altogether.
Once agan, Marc, like CaptainNJ you post generalities and Rush Limbaugh talking points without even bothering to do a little bit of research about the issue. The Canadian system isn't perfect, but the vast majority of people have access to primary care and are generally satisfied with it while 1/5 or 1/6 of our population has inadequate access to primary care. We could take the best aspects of HC in the Western world and come up with something better than we have for sure.
Some Canadians comment about their HC system:
I am a Canadian living in BC.
I have been listening to the discussions on NPR about Borak's plan to remake the US system of health care for months now. One thing that never seems to come up is how much it costs a Canadian for medical. I have a family of 4, Spouse and two children. The BC medical system bills me C$324.00 quarterly. This pays for any hospital visits, emergency and long term care. When admitted to the hospital every thing is payed for. I also have a company medical plan that costs me C$136.00 monthly and this covers a percentage of prescriptions and dental. These plans provide more or less depending on what you pay. I pay less than C$3000.00 per year for what I consider great health care.
One thing that may be taken into account when talking about people not being able to find a doctor is the fact that there are plenty of walk in clinics that provide the same care that a regular doctor would provide all on your Government Medical. You may have to go a little farther from home but they are readily available. It is so obvious that US citizens have been duped by their government and the big Insurance companies, all in the name of anti socialism.
From what I have heard most Canadians are satisfied with their system. I know of several people that moved back to Canada because they could NOT get coverage at any price in the U.S. Why do we need insurance companies? They are nothing but middlemen that make huge profits by standing between our care providers and a payment processing entity. Tort reform is a must. We are over prescribed because our doctors fear being sued. Lawyers are advertising for clients to sue a provider. There is something seriously wrong here! Drug costs are ridiculous! The drug companies claim that they need the higher prices to cover the cost of developing new drugs yet they spend more money on advertising than they do on research. Why should prescription drugs be advertised to the general public. Formularies are standard practice in most drug insurance plans. We need a national formulary. Why not a cooperative centralized facility for costly ‘scanners’? Electronic medical records would reduce the number of errors and would provide better care. Patient information should be available regardless of where care is needed, locally, nationally or internationally. Comparison shopping for both insurance plans and providers should be easy. ‘Apples to Apples''
I pay higher taxes in Canada than I did in the US. I am a US citizen who has been a permanent resident of Canada for over 20 years. In exchange for paying higher taxes, residents of Canada receive FREE GOOD QUALITY health care. You do wait longer than in the US for elective surgeries and for SOME specialists, and all of the hospitals are in need of redecorating. Don't believe the horror stories you may hear about 'patients in the halls of hospitals' in Canada, etc. I see the same thing in US hospitals. No one will EVER lose their house or go bankrupt in Canada over their uninsured health care costs. In my experience (childbirths, cancer treatment) with both health care systems, the Canadian system is FAR superior.
Once agan, Marc, like CaptainNJ you post generalities and Rush Limbaugh talking points without even bothering to do a little bit of research about the issue. The Canadian system isn't perfect, but the vast majority of people have access to primary care and are generally satisfied with it while 1/5 or 1/6 of our population has inadequate access to primary care. We could take the best aspects of HC in the Western world and come up with something better than we have for sure.
Some Canadians comment about their HC system:
I am a Canadian living in BC.
I have been listening to the discussions on NPR about Borak's plan to remake the US system of health care for months now. One thing that never seems to come up is how much it costs a Canadian for medical. I have a family of 4, Spouse and two children. The BC medical system bills me C$324.00 quarterly. This pays for any hospital visits, emergency and long term care. When admitted to the hospital every thing is payed for. I also have a company medical plan that costs me C$136.00 monthly and this covers a percentage of prescriptions and dental. These plans provide more or less depending on what you pay. I pay less than C$3000.00 per year for what I consider great health care.
One thing that may be taken into account when talking about people not being able to find a doctor is the fact that there are plenty of walk in clinics that provide the same care that a regular doctor would provide all on your Government Medical. You may have to go a little farther from home but they are readily available. It is so obvious that US citizens have been duped by their government and the big Insurance companies, all in the name of anti socialism.
From what I have heard most Canadians are satisfied with their system. I know of several people that moved back to Canada because they could NOT get coverage at any price in the U.S. Why do we need insurance companies? They are nothing but middlemen that make huge profits by standing between our care providers and a payment processing entity. Tort reform is a must. We are over prescribed because our doctors fear being sued. Lawyers are advertising for clients to sue a provider. There is something seriously wrong here! Drug costs are ridiculous! The drug companies claim that they need the higher prices to cover the cost of developing new drugs yet they spend more money on advertising than they do on research. Why should prescription drugs be advertised to the general public. Formularies are standard practice in most drug insurance plans. We need a national formulary. Why not a cooperative centralized facility for costly ‘scanners’? Electronic medical records would reduce the number of errors and would provide better care. Patient information should be available regardless of where care is needed, locally, nationally or internationally. Comparison shopping for both insurance plans and providers should be easy. ‘Apples to Apples''
I pay higher taxes in Canada than I did in the US. I am a US citizen who has been a permanent resident of Canada for over 20 years. In exchange for paying higher taxes, residents of Canada receive FREE GOOD QUALITY health care. You do wait longer than in the US for elective surgeries and for SOME specialists, and all of the hospitals are in need of redecorating. Don't believe the horror stories you may hear about 'patients in the halls of hospitals' in Canada, etc. I see the same thing in US hospitals. No one will EVER lose their house or go bankrupt in Canada over their uninsured health care costs. In my experience (childbirths, cancer treatment) with both health care systems, the Canadian system is FAR superior.
EB, this is anecdotal nonsense, not data. But even your testimonial is a compromise, with the proponent of Canadian health care hedging his bets with an admission of waiting lists for surgeries. And I'll be damned if it's only "elective" procedures. That's BS. You are not only waiting for a face lift. You will be put on a wait list for anything that's INNOVATIVE or EXPENSIVE. The strategy of all collective health care "systems" is to "control costs", not save or improve lives.
Need a vitamin recommendation? Or a flu shot? No problem. Hit the government (read: your neighbor) up for "free" care. But when push comes to shove, the strategy for seriously ill people needing state of the art procedures and drugs is simple: WAIT LIST THEM and they will hopefully DIE before ever getting the more expensive, but still second rate, health "care".
Let me make my position clear: I DON'T WANT ANYBODY TELLING ME HOW TO TAKE CARE OF MY HEALTH OR MY HEALTH CARE. I want a totally free system where I make the decisions, since, after all, it is my life. I want to choose the doctor, the facility, the procedure, all of it. I want to pay private health insurance premiums to a private company who ANSWERS TO NOBODY except the consumer. No government involvement whatsoever.
The solution: FREE, CAPITALISTIC, UNENCUMBERED, UNREGULATED, LAISSEZ-FAIRE health care.
Honestly, take the European and German and British and Canadian and Chinese systems and shove them all.
And really, in the final analysis I don't give a rat's azz if they are "better". Of course they are not, and the grass is always greener in European Heaven, but I want a free system. I value freedom higher and I am willing to pay for it.
And I have no problem suggesting that Americans who want socialized medicine move to socialized countries. Good bye and good luck. I was born in a free country, and that's the way I want it to stay: politically, socially, economically, all of it. I will take my chances with freedom, and if it means dying because I am unable to demand and expropriate the time and lives of my fellow citizens because of my own personal "need", then it's time to die.
It is better to die free than enslave others based on need.
EB, this is anecdotal nonsense, not data. But even your testimonial is a compromise, with the proponent of Canadian health care hedging his bets with an admission of waiting lists for surgeries. And I'll be damned if it's only "elective" procedures. That's BS. You are not only waiting for a face lift. You will be put on a wait list for anything that's INNOVATIVE or EXPENSIVE. The strategy of all collective health care "systems" is to "control costs", not save or improve lives.
Need a vitamin recommendation? Or a flu shot? No problem. Hit the government (read: your neighbor) up for "free" care. But when push comes to shove, the strategy for seriously ill people needing state of the art procedures and drugs is simple: WAIT LIST THEM and they will hopefully DIE before ever getting the more expensive, but still second rate, health "care".
Let me make my position clear: I DON'T WANT ANYBODY TELLING ME HOW TO TAKE CARE OF MY HEALTH OR MY HEALTH CARE. I want a totally free system where I make the decisions, since, after all, it is my life. I want to choose the doctor, the facility, the procedure, all of it. I want to pay private health insurance premiums to a private company who ANSWERS TO NOBODY except the consumer. No government involvement whatsoever.
The solution: FREE, CAPITALISTIC, UNENCUMBERED, UNREGULATED, LAISSEZ-FAIRE health care.
Honestly, take the European and German and British and Canadian and Chinese systems and shove them all.
And really, in the final analysis I don't give a rat's azz if they are "better". Of course they are not, and the grass is always greener in European Heaven, but I want a free system. I value freedom higher and I am willing to pay for it.
And I have no problem suggesting that Americans who want socialized medicine move to socialized countries. Good bye and good luck. I was born in a free country, and that's the way I want it to stay: politically, socially, economically, all of it. I will take my chances with freedom, and if it means dying because I am unable to demand and expropriate the time and lives of my fellow citizens because of my own personal "need", then it's time to die.
It is better to die free than enslave others based on need.
Blah, blah, blah. OK, we can have an opt out provision for people like yourself and you can visit the doctor of your choice. As we see in post after post on CD, you're only worried about you & yours while most people are concerned about the welfare of all Americans.
Congressmen, the military, those over age 65, veterans are ALL covered by a Communist/Socialist/Obama-ist form of government HC and the vast majority like the "perk" of being healthy at a low cost. If you're true to your word, you should be protesting these "government intrusions" on these people's HC or move to a country that has no health care. You can choose from the fine countries in the map below. I hear Angola is quite warm this time of year.
(Interesting note on the map - "Iraq and Afghanistan universal health coverage provided by United States war funding." Isn't that rich! Thank you Dubya and Cheney for your magnanimous gift to the fine people of Iraq & Afghanistan)
Congressmen, the military, those over age 65, veterans are ALL covered by a Communist/Socialist/Obama-ist form of government HC and the vast majority like the "perk" of being healthy at a low cost.
providing benefits through the government is a good trick to make people think they are getting something for little to no cost. their positive opinion of the system means very little. most people are also happy with their private insurance coverage through their employer but they dont know if its costs $400 a month or $4000 a month for their coverage.
providing benefits through the government is a good trick to make people think they are getting something for little to no cost. their positive opinion of the system means very little. most people are also happy with their private insurance coverage through their employer but they dont know if its costs $400 a month or $4000 a month for their coverage.
I have increasingly disliked both the benefits provided and the cost of my company's medical insurance over the last few years. Maybe your experience is different. The annual increases have ranged from 6-8% per year and the choice of doctors has gotten slimmer. Co-pays are more expensive as well.
I have increasingly disliked both the benefits provided and the cost of my company's medical insurance over the last few years. Maybe your experience is different. The annual increases have ranged from 6-8% per year and the choice of doctors has gotten slimmer. Co-pays are more expensive as well.
im generally happy with my insurance but it has gotten worse and more expensive. but im not defending the current system, i do believe there needs to be reform. i just disagree that a government operated single payer system is the way to go. so my main point in my last post is that you cant really look at consumer satsifaction to measure the system. its not totally meaningless, but when insurance is involved (private or public) the consumer often has no clue what the cost is and unfortunately that is very important to the sustainability of the system.
oh and like marc and i have said already, there is a tremendous amount of government in our system. to pretend that we have a private system isnt close to accurate.
Last edited by CaptainNJ; 06-04-2012 at 01:19 PM..
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Today, 07:20 AM 
