steam boiler age

[46H]

Originally Posted by bbnetworking

So my boiler is 11 years old, and PSEG guy came and said it might be leaking, because he sees rusted particles on the floor, I am having a real expert to come and look at it next week. (BTW, don't bother with PSEG worry-free) I need to add fresh water everyday. No leaks anywhere on the floor.

It's a Burnham Gas, Steam boiler, 170k BTU, Cast Iron Heat Exchanger. Replacement is $6k installed.

Other option is to add Auto-Water Feeder at $450, band aid, not a real solution.

Felt ripped when it's only 11 year old. Warranty is only 10 years.

I replaced a 30 year old oil/steam unit with a gas/steam unit in 2012. The oil unit cracked and leaked water in my basement. I did not get an auto feed attachment on the new boiler because I wanted to monitor the water usage. I have to add some water periodically. It is due to one or 2 of my radiator connections.

[Kthnry]

Mine was 45+ years old when I replaced it. I was hoping to see big gains in efficiency, but no luck -- my oil bills did not go down much.

[46H]

Originally Posted by Kthnry

Mine was 45+ years old when I replaced it. I was hoping to see big gains in efficiency, but no luck -- my oil bills did not go down much.

My oil company tried to tell me the same thing. My oil bill (heat only) until 2012 ranged between $1800 and $2400 per winter season. Since 2012, the new gas furnace added (for heat) between $450 and $650 to my gas bill over the winter season. It was clearly the right decision to switch to gas. Other benefits were my electric bill went down due to elimination of the oil feed pump, there is no more oil smell in the house, the gas is continuously supplied and the maintenance of the boiler is much less.

[Portgas]

There has been little if any improvement in the design of conventional steam boilers other than the inclusion of electronic controls which makes it impossible to operate when you have a power outage. During storm Sandy when we lost power but were able to fire up our 40+ year old steam boiler since it was not managed using electronics. I just shorted the wires going to the Honeywell gas control unit.

New steam boilers are no more efficient than those sold 40+ years ago!

[BugsyPal]

Originally Posted by Portgas

There has been little if any improvement in the design of conventional steam boilers other than the inclusion of electronic controls which makes it impossible to operate when you have a power outage. During storm Sandy when we lost power but were able to fire up our 40+ year old steam boiler since it was not managed using electronics. I just shorted the wires going to the Honeywell gas control unit.

New steam boilers are no more efficient than those sold 40+ years ago!

Exactly!


There are scores if not hundreds of buildings all over the North East with the same steam boilers from when they were built > 100 years ago now. Main changes are they were converted from coal to oil and or natural gas (dual burners), with perhaps some other maintenance including parts replaced.


You could get boilers back in the 1940's or even 1930's in the 80% efficiency range. General Electric brought out a down draft oil boiler back in 1940's that got pretty good efficacy and gave excellent service.


Sadly in post WWII years as steam heating faded out of favor for new construction many of the old heads died off and new blood didn't replace. Thus tons of knowledge was lost which impacts those still using steam heating today. When such persons call for service they just may get some egit that doesn't know what he's seeing/doing and first response is to advice homeowner to get rid of their "old" and "obsolete" boiler in favor of something new with "higher efficacy" and so forth. It's the old Cosmo Castorini play from Moonstruck. The guy makes his money selling homeowners something they didn't really need.


Happily Dan Holohan has devoted much of his life to resurrecting the lost art of steam heating. His book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and other publications is the work of countless hours of pouring over materials put out/used by the long gone "Dead Men".




https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...-of-steam-heat



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQB0KK2rxcw

[Swamp_Yankee]

Originally Posted by BugsyPal

Sadly in post WWII years as steam heating faded out of favor for new construction many of the old heads died off and new blood didn't replace. Thus tons of knowledge was lost which impacts those still using steam heating today. When such persons call for service they just may get some egit that doesn't know what he's seeing/doing and first response is to advice homeowner to get rid of their "old" and "obsolete" boiler in favor of something new with "higher efficacy" and so forth. It's the old Cosmo Castorini play from Moonstruck. The guy makes his money selling homeowners something they didn't really need.

Steam certainly gives off a lot of heat, but at the expense of using a lot of fuel. My modern hydronic boiler never heats water to not more than 145°F which is a far cry from 212°F. A steam boiler can throw a load of BTUs at a cold house and warm it up in a hurry, but a modern hydronic boiler can keep a home at a steady temperature (or range of temperatures) using far less fuel. As I type right now its 43°F outside and the house is at 71°F inside using 124°F water. If I had steel panel radiators (much better heat transfer) instead of fin and tube baseboard I could be using even cooler water to achieve the same indoor temperature.

[ansky]

Originally Posted by Swamp_Yankee

Steam certainly gives off a lot of heat, but at the expense of using a lot of fuel. My modern hydronic boiler never heats water to not more than 145°F which is a far cry from 212°F. A steam boiler can throw a load of BTUs at a cold house and warm it up in a hurry, but a modern hydronic boiler can keep a home at a steady temperature (or range of temperatures) using far less fuel. As I type right now its 43°F outside and the house is at 71°F inside using 124°F water. If I had steel panel radiators (much better heat transfer) instead of fin and tube baseboard I could be using even cooler water to achieve the same indoor temperature.

This is not really an accurate assessment. Since steam is hotter than 145-degree water, when you pump steam into a cast iron radiator, that radiator stays hot long after the boiler turns off. When my boiler turns off my radiators are so hot that they are still providing me heat for up to 20-30 minutes while the boiler isn't even running. I used to live in a house that had hot water baseboard. I now live in a house that has steam. Both ran on natural gas. My energy bills are noticeably lower using the steam boiler.

[Swamp_Yankee]

Originally Posted by ansky

This is not really an accurate assessment. Since steam is hotter than 145-degree water, when you pump steam into a cast iron radiator, that radiator stays hot long after the boiler turns off. When my boiler turns off my radiators are so hot that they are still providing me heat for up to 20-30 minutes while the boiler isn't even running. I used to live in a house that had hot water baseboard. I now live in a house that has steam. Both ran on natural gas. My energy bills are noticeably lower using the steam boiler.

Not all hydronic boilers are the same. Ours is a German made Buderus with a 2107 Logamatic controller and outdoor air temperature sensor. Most North American made hydronic boilers (which is likely what you had) simply heat water to 180°F, circulate it through the zones until the water temperatures drop to 160°F and then repeat. North American boiler technology is way behind European technology for one simple reason, the proliferation of forced air heat here. Forced air is cheap to install and maintain. In the U.S. about 500,000 boilers are installed every year (new and replacement). In Europe they do about 100 million a year. This is why I can't get a Wi-Fi enabled Tekmar controller for my Buderus that would allow me to change everything from DHW temperatures to heating curves from my smartphone. Tekmar makes those for the Euro market (240V/50Hz) only because that's where the market is.

As for the steam heating with cast iron radiators, what you're experiencing is the phenomenon of storage. In terms of efficiency you're really not gaining anything because you still had to burn a lot of fuel to generate that tremendous amount of heat-you're just releasing it slowly over time from the mass of the cast iron. Efficiency is gained when you have a lower temperature differential, ie: heating a room to 70°F ambient with 212°F water (steam) has a differential of 142° whereas, heating the same room to 70°F with 145°F water has a differential of only 75°F. The less heat you have to generate in the first place to achieve the same ambient temperature = fuel and $$$ saved. Again, with technology like steel panel radiators or radiant floor heating, even lower differentials can be achieved.

[BugsyPal]

Originally Posted by Swamp_Yankee

Steam certainly gives off a lot of heat, but at the expense of using a lot of fuel. My modern hydronic boiler never heats water to not more than 145°F which is a far cry from 212°F. A steam boiler can throw a load of BTUs at a cold house and warm it up in a hurry, but a modern hydronic boiler can keep a home at a steady temperature (or range of temperatures) using far less fuel. As I type right now its 43°F outside and the house is at 71°F inside using 124°F water. If I had steel panel radiators (much better heat transfer) instead of fin and tube baseboard I could be using even cooler water to achieve the same indoor temperature.

Again there were no flies on the "Old Heads". They long ago figured out how to get the efficacy and comfort of hot water heating using steam. Their answer was vapor/vacuum steam heating.


https://www.facilitiesnet.com/hvac/c...omeback--38418


https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discus...t-vapor-vacuum


More: https://www.google.com/search?q=vacu...ih=561&dpr=1.5

Today you can still find such systems in residential and other buildings working as intended and giving good service with efficacy. In fact gains in latter are greater today in the right hands thanks to switching from coal to modulated gas burners.