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I suppose my point is that it is quite easy to get away with what you call insurance fraud. The definition the treasury Dept uses is pretty ambiguous.
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(2) Principal residence. In the case of a taxpayer using more than one
property as a residence, whether property is used by the taxpayer as the
taxpayer's principal residence depends upon all the facts and circumstances.
If a taxpayer alternates between 2 properties, using each as a residence for
successive periods of time, the property that the taxpayer uses a majority of
the time during the year ordinarily will be considered the taxpayer's principal
residence. In addition to the taxpayer's use of the property, relevant factors
in determining a taxpayer's principal residence, include, but are not limited to:
(i) The taxpayer’s place of employment; Not really relevant in the tri state areaand no evidence of where you might live.
(ii) The principal place of abode of the taxpayer’s family members; My children live where I live, in PA. See the next point.
(iii) The address listed on the taxpayer’s federal and state tax returns,
driver’s license, automobile registration, and voter registration card; This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. If I register my car fraudulently and file my taxes from PA the government will back me up???What government resources will be spent in order to determine where I spent 183 days of the last year.
(iv) The taxpayer's mailing address for bills and correspondence;Easy enough to do.
(v) The location of the taxpayer's banks; and I use Ally (on line) I also use Chase but I'm not required to tell the insurance co. that.
(vi) The location of religious organizations and recreational clubs with
which the taxpayer is affiliated Really irrelevant and not information you're required to divulge under any circumstance.
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by keeping his out of state licence and claiming residency in a state he no longer lives in thats breaking the law. Well yes it is but honestly it isn't prosecuted as far as I could find. Unless you are the perpetrator-ring leader of that insurance fraud ring in Bucks Co.
if he had a car and kept his out of state licence that would be insurance fraud. I always wondered why there were so many black people from Vermont visiting Harlem.No really!The point being that an insurance company would simply cancel a policy rather then expend high priced legal talent, not to mention investigating where you spent the last 365 days, or if you will 730 days in order to prove what? You payed a lower premium then you should of. What kind of scratch are we talking about? A few thousand really. It's all profit to the insurance co, especially if they can cancel because you fail to provide proof of residency.
its amazing how something so simple as trying to keep your old license can grow into so many violations.
It's like jaywalking, it's news when somebody actually is arrested or prosecuted for it.
the definition is quite clear when you do your state tax return, just plug the numbers in and the days spent in each location when prompted with the question about being a full time resident . it will make the choice for you as to whether or not you file a non resident tax form. .it does all the interpretation you need ha ha ha ha...its actually quite common to be audited as to where your
claiming your principal residence is. i even work with a guy who was using his pa address as his principal address but actually lives and works here in nyc and they audited him.. the burdon of proof is now shifted to him to produce whatever records he could to prove his claim of living in pa full time.. typically if he was truthful he could have produced any number of documents such as cell phone records or charge
card statements or ez-pass to prove his claim. but he got busted because he couldnt utilize any of the above and had to pay a lot in penaltys and fines.
although folks get caught regularly registering at addresses that arent really their primary residence usually they arent prosecuted . they are dropped ,flagged a rate evador and thrown into the high risk pool and assesed a certain amount of points.. it would have been far cheaper not to do it in the first place,..
it reminds me of years ago when my son first got his licence and i called geico and added him to the policy. i asked now that i added him what would have happened if i didnt call you first and you found out later on he got a license.
they said they do routine checks to see who in housholds have licesnses at that address and if they caught me i wouldnt have been charged the discounted 1600 bucks for him but the regular 2500.00 buck price, i would have been dropped at renewal , assesed 3 points for hiding a driver and put in the assigned risk pool. it would have cost me far more then had i done it right from the beginning.
its not the fact you paid less on your premium,its the fact that pa only has mandatory 5,000 property damage and charges you accordingly. the state of pa and the insurance company has to pick up the tab and pay out as much as 50,000 in claims for every driver who lies and has an accident in new york with substantial property damage claims and they shouldnt even have been insured in the state. federal law forces the state and insurer to elevate your coverage to the mandatory levels of every state you drive in.
you make things overly simple but in reality mod there is alot going on behind the scenes when people lie.. im sure their are alot more pitfalls in other areas too but we just arent aware of them just like 99% of the people reading this werent aware of what the issue is when you insure in pa but live here.
while you may be correct about the insurers or taxing authorities not being able to get the records to document where you spend most of your time directly they can and do throw the burden of proof back on you to prove where you live,.....
Last edited by mathjak107; 10-20-2010 at 04:14 AM..
you can register and insure a vehicle in NY with an out of state license.
I did this in 2010 because my I keep and register my motorcycle in PA.
PA does not allow you to register a car or motorcycle in the state with an out of state license. I had to turn in my NY license and convert it to PA, even though I live in NY full time.
This is also the case with many of the MTA bus drivers and train motormen, NYPD, FDNY, Postal Service workers and Union Tradesmen who work in the city but live in the Poconos.
PA and NY fought over this one for a while and ultimately PA ended up winning.
it would be insurance fraud keeping your out of state license while living here if your claiming your primary residence is in that state which you have to in order to insure there so it matches your license.. that now becomes tax fraud as well.
Well I was looking for new York insurance fraud and didn't find that registering your car at another state was penalized especially if you live in a state like PA but work in NY. You say easy pass and cell phones can prove you are lying but proving that sort of insurance fraud is very very hard. since many people work in the city but live in poconos or even further in Pennsylvania and commute to work on a daily basis. That is definitely not insurance fraud. And for tax fraud well whatever state is your ID or license that is the state you would fill out your taxes in. For example my professor lives in rural Pennsylvania but comes to manhattan 3 times a week by car travels 3 hours to get to the city but lives in PA. I mean also what if you are travelling to work and get into an accident in NYC but have insurance from CT where you truly live or what not?
What is Insurance Fraud?
Insurance fraud is a crime. And far from being a victimless crime, insurance fraud victimizes every resident of New York State, costing consumers millions of dollars in the form of increased premiums and higher prices for goods and services. The exact cost of insurance fraud is difficult to estimate because much of it goes unreported. Insurance Fraud takes many forms.
A driver and a body shop worker agree to inflate the auto damage claim and share the "profit."
A homeowner falsely claims that his home was burglarized and valuable items stolen.
A doctor bills an insurer for services that were not provided.
A driver stages a fake accident, and unscrupulous doctors and lawyers help "handle" associated medical claims and lawsuits.
A worker collects workers’ compensation benefits while employed.
your car must be registered and insured where it is principally garaged and where your primary home is as well with many states , florida being one exception i know for sure . . . . if you live in pa and work in ny that is fine as pa is your primary home and the car spends most of its time in pa. . you are supposed to register and insure in pa . it has nothing to do with where you drive to for work or pleasure .
it is fraud when the car is garaged in ny and ny is your primary because you are living in ny but claim it is garaged primarily in pa . then instead of paying ny rates you are lying and paying pa rates .
see the difference from what you said ?
the reason is if you are not a pa resident and insure in pa then the state of pa and your insurer has to elevate you to ny minimums and pick up the tab with no additional premium to you if you are in an accident here with minimum pa coverage .
federal law requires them to do that so lying as to where the car is primarily kept is fraud .
new yorkers can have homes in florida but if their primary home is in nys then that car up here must be registered and insured up here even if they take it down to florida . they could register and insure another car that is kept down there while ny is their primary .
pa does not allow that . pa must be your primary to register and insure there .
when we had our 2nd home in pa they busted a storefront in the poconos that set new yorkers up with a bogus address and got them insurance in pa fraudulently . every new yorker was charged with insurance fraud.
we could not register or insure in pa unless we had a pa license . but we could not get a pa license unless we made pa our primary home .
it was to easy to prove pa was not our primary today, so we would never do that . get bagged and it is both tax and insurance fraud .
Last edited by mathjak107; 11-08-2017 at 04:02 PM..
your car must be registered and insured where it is principally garaged and where your primary home is as well with many states , florida being one exception i know for sure . . . . if you live in pa and work in ny that is fine as pa is your primary home and the car spends most of its time in pa. . you are supposed to register and insure in pa . it has nothing to do with where you drive to for work or pleasure .
it is fraud when the car is garaged in ny and ny is your primary because you are living in ny but claim it is garaged primarily in pa . then instead of paying ny rates you are lying and paying pa rates .
see the difference from what you said ?
the reason is if you are not a pa resident and insure in pa then the state of pa and your insurer has to elevate you to ny minimums and pick up the tab with no additional premium to you if you are in an accident here with minimum pa coverage .
federal law requires them to do that so lying as to where the car is primarily kept is fraud .
new yorkers can have homes in florida but if their primary home is in nys then that car up here must be registered and insured up here even if they take it down to florida . they could register and insure another car that is kept down there while ny is their primary .
pa does not allow that . pa must be your primary to register and insure there .
when we had our 2nd home in pa they busted a storefront in the poconos that set new yorkers up with a bogus address and got them insurance in pa fraudulently . every new yorker was charged with insurance fraud.
we could not register or insure in pa unless we had a pa license . but we could not get a pa license unless we made pa our primary home .
it was to easy to prove pa was not our primary today, so we would never do that . get bagged and it is both tax and insurance fraud .
you missed my point. I said you could register the car in PA with a PA license they cant prove you live in NY if all of your correspondence is in PA. you could be traveling to NY for vacation on a weekend and have an accident... so by your logic I would be doing insurance fraud? don't think so. tax fraud? really I pay taxes to PA and NY so they are good buddy. get your facts straight also PA gives you 60 days to surrender your license after establishing there not 10 as you previously mentioned. I use to WORK in PA and live in NY for almost a year. now I live in PA (Just moved) and work in NY due to the expensiveness of everything in NY I travel most of the time on public transportation. So I am not evading rates. also just so you know upstate NY has cheaper rates than even PA and I have family out there, I could've registered my car there and have everything go there and kept my NY license but I chose not too. I only use my car occasionally for pleasure to go to NY since I have family out there. So lets say I get into an accident out there in NY they cant come at me with insurance fraud or tax fraud! I will be filling out taxes in NY this year only since I must because I have lived 183 days of this year in NY. But as of next year I HAVE to fill out my taxes in PA. also your car does not need to be principally garaged in a certain location for it to be insured in PA. Getting my insurance in PA my insurance company asked me if the car will be 50% of the time at my new PA address to which I said yes because it is true. So technically it could be 50% in NY AND 50% in PA. I studied criminal justice and Law in college. And when Fraud is commited is not as easy as it looks to prove. Even with easy passes or phone records. those are all not sufficient evidence. for example I have my phone line from NY on a family package with my aunt and cousins, those phone bill goes to NY but it isn't even on my name lol, who phone record are they going to look for? my aunt! NOT MINES. Easy pass? what I cant travel now?
but I understand what you mean. like for example I can register my car with NY license in PA but I would need to trade in my driver license eventually by law in PA I have 60 days to do so. some people get caught doing insurance fraud because they register their car in PA with NY license and are obviously lying in order to avoid high rates. I understand them sometimes NY rates are ridiculous even in remote areas like rural queens where I grew up in rates are 650+ for new drivers and that's with highest deductibles. that to me is fraud and I will be advocating for insurance fraud on behalf of these insurance companies ripping people off.
Last edited by mark809; 11-09-2017 at 10:00 AM..
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