How much was a hotel in NYC in 1980? (New York, York: theater, live)

[rlrl]

and Broadway in the upper 40's were porn saturated but it only looked intimidating. only the 3 card Monte players hustled passersby but I don't think there were drugs and prostitution on 7th and B'way??

[bmwguydc]

It is interesting to think about what the area was, and how it has changed in the past couple of decades. I remember once being with a school group for a show, not sure which one, though it could have been Brighton Beach Memoirs, for an evening performance in the area in the late 1980s.

Two of my friends and I, two of us natives, one newly arrived from California, became separated from the group at night. To say the Dean of Students and a few of the teachers were panicked is an understatement. We walked over to The Marquis and took a cab to the restaurant where we were scheduled for a post-show dinner. Years later I was joking about the incident with my former teacher, and she said that it had truly frightened her, and she had a mild panic attack when she got home that night. It was unintentional, just lost in the chaos of exiting the theater, but she had visions of the worst of the Westside lurking in the alleys.

On another occasion, we had a night tour led by one of our teachers, off-the-record, of his haunts when he was actively involved in the New York theater scene. He was persuaded to give us the tour because my friend was involved in his theater group. We started in the late afternoon, and he recounted tales of seedy elements at night in the area, especially to the west of Times Square, and over by the Port Authority. It wasn't too great at night, even then, and that was a few years after The Marquis and changes that had begun in the area.

[SUPERCHIC]

Would you say that TS had more drugs and hookers in the 70's then the 80's? I believe so.

[rlrl]

and a little too commercial, declined in the late 60's. by the early 70's 42 street and 8th Ave was described as "the worst corner in town". in 1975 the NY TImes described the area as a "sinkhole". in 1978 plans became underway to fix up the area but crime went up by 60%. in the 80's the new Milford Plaza Hotel, Marriot Marquis Hotel and Worldwide Plaza Office/Apartment tower improved the area somewhat but drugs and prostitution were still a problem. In 1992 the Times Square cleanup started and the start of the Times Square BID. In 1996 42 street was emptied of it's last adult store. In 1997 the street acquired it's "Disney" reputation and from then on the area was totally changed.

In 1976 there was something like 140 adult establishments. currently it's probably less than 10

to me, the 70's were worse. i noticed a lot of improvement, particularly in the late 80's but never as good as the 90's

[Mightyqueen801]

I worked at the PABT from 1979 to 1982. It was a construction office when they were adding the North Wing to the bus terminal. Our guys who were up on the steel could see into the fourth floor windows of Show World and watch them filming porn flicks.

The cops told us stories of men picking up hookers and going to those fleabag hotels and while they were doing their thing on the bed, the accomplice under the bed would empty out the john's wallet.

Just some background scenery for your book. : )

[Zeech]

This is all very interesting. My characters come in from the midwest for a visit and are short on cash so they end up staying in a fleabag by the Port Authority. Would have been better off staying in the park, I think.

[bmwguydc]

LOL...your characters might have been better off sleeping in the park, or even cat napping on the bus all night.

It would certainly have been a culture shock to envision what was the Westisde in that era, and I wasn't even alive for much of the bad era, though saw some signs of it as a child, and have heard stories from rational native NYers about just how bad it became.

If you need any more background, please post again, as there are many on the forum who can give you insight into the city.

[rlrl]

TS was at it's worst in the time between 1970 and 1985, with crime jumping as much as 60% in the period between 1978 and 1980

two things that always stood out in my mind. in the spring of '78 a vagrant who was harrassing passersby in the Port Authority bus terminal was trying to be subdued by the police. The vagrant grabbed the officer's gun and simply started spraying everyone and everything with bullets. Several people were hit. I think he killed one of the cops, i think they killed him too it was a true horror

I remember i had been in the PABT a few days before that as a teen

in the fall of 1979 a gang rampaged through the 42 street/8th Avenue subway kiosk robbing, beating and assaulting anyone in their path. i remember one of the newscatsers on channel 5 saying at the end "the simple fact of the matter is 42nd street and 8th Avenue is a frightening place day or night"

today the worst thing you can say about it is that it's crowded

[jcoltrane]

[Hope the typos aren't too bad. Not proofreading.]

To the thread, from someone who lived the era, and first visited Times Square the Summer of '77, and by the Fall of '78 was a regular visitor, week and weekend, days and nights. I've seen it all, and been a part of some. From Studio 54, Roseland, Xenon and Bonds, to Show World, to the Port Authority. From NYer to suburban commuter I've lived it all. My city to the fullest.

First, if recollection is correct, I spent a intimate evening at the Milford Plaza one Summer night in '81. The cost was $60 for a corner single room just a bit larger than the Queen sized bed. Generally, it was the cheapest best in the area.

@rlrl, I have no recollection of any 'open air' drug market in the area surrounding Times Square. The are while a notorious for street prostitution, and you could find a legitimate drug dealer on the strret, most street buys led to ripoofs. Dealing drugs blatantly on the street didn't take place in the manner I believe you think. Generally, there steerers and/or runner types on the street. A buyer was either directed to a drug spot, or a runner woud take the money, while a buyer waited, and returned with the drugs. Either way, buyers had a 50/50 chance of getting ripped off. No one drove to TS and did a deal out of the car window.

Horrid??

One would only use such an adjective from the perspective of today and/or coming from a 'sterile' non-NY background, like from the midwest of the time.

Times Square, whille a sex supermarket, and drugs were secondary to sex, and relatively underground. The perception of drugs, great as it was, was greater than the reality. The ripoff game was at least as great as the actual drug game. The perception feed the ripoff artists, as dumb white kids spewed into the area 'looking' for drugs making for easy marks. Times Square was a 'Hustler's' paradise!!!

The are deteriorated as it was and became was never as bad as, for example Hell's Kitchen, Chelsea, or the East Village, which did become open air drug (Heroin) markets, with abandoned buildings and strung out hookers.

Times Square of the 70s and early 80s must be taken in that perspective, "horrid" were places like the South Bronx and East New York, Brooklyn, whloe areas of burnt, abandoned. Uildings and people. Blocks of nothing. TS was never like that.

There was LOTS of money being made. There was legitimate money being made of the illicit and illegitmate activities.

Prostitutes, at night, could be found from 12th Ave to 6 Ave., from the 34th St area, in and around the hotels and Lincoln Tunnel exists to 50Th and 8th and on 6th extending to 58th St. Peep Shows from 9th to 6th, and and all manner of places with sex shows and 'indoor' prostitution of every level and imagination. Some were bold out and obvious, some were 'messge parlors' offering all levels of satisfaction to more undercover operations which you had to have word where and what went on inside (just like after hours clubs). Classy, decent and dives, you got what you paid for.

Most street activity was confined to the evening and night hours. During day hours street hoes were confined to small portion of the strip, sticking to doorways and bars; and way West in and around the old Greyhound bus terminal, as well as in and around the 'buyous' of the Port Authority.

Nothing 'horrid' save for the actually of what was going on, for example a peep show could be next door to a 7-11 or a office building, not much was thought of it. Middle class su urban people passed throught the area EVERY DAY on their way to and from the Port Authority, it was just a part of every day life.

Not only that, but the men frequenting the sex places were overwhelmingly white men in suit and ties, beginning at I or earlier in the morning. The people searching for drugs were white, either from the suburbs or the white neigghborhoods of the outer boroughs. Half or the street hoes were white, with the percentage even higher indoors. So its not as if there were a horde of blacks and/or hispanics invading TS and making the white folks nervous. Except for the Hustlers, Pimps, Dealers and Prostitutes, blacks, particularly in the 70s stayed in their neighborhoods, except for work. Also, at least a quarter or more of the Hustlers and Dealers were white.

Another thing to comprehend is that it was a different era. NYC was still 'neighborhood' oriented. Especially so in the outer boroughs. This is a period when neighborhoods had their own movie theaters, restaurants, and other entertainment venus. So, most people lived and entertained in their neighborhoods. The working class rarely went to Manhattan for anything. Back in the day blacks and hispanics who lived deep in the ghetto ne er went to Manhattan. Each borough had its own shopping district, Brooklyn had the 2nd and 3rd largest shopping districts in the COUNTRY! So, while Manhattan was always the center, all things were far less Manhattan centric.

I say this to dispel any thought that what was happening in TS or the rest of Manhattan was a popular focus, it wasn't. At least half the city wasn't personally aware, most only marginally so through TV news. This fact is a large reason so much of the city was allowed to deteriorate.

As far as the hotel you ask about, the 'ramada' or whatever, the one next to the fire house. It's location at the far end of the strip aided in keeping the place a bit above the goings on. If I recall, the security of the place was relatively tight. I think one had to be buzzed in. In any event the place was light and bright. It was never a prostitute hotel and may have been slightly out of place. Walking the strip, reaching it and the parking lot which had been MSG, was a marker that you were re-entering normal society.

Lastly, a major thing to comprehend is that none of it, NONE, could have gone on except for the massive corruption which existed among the police and politicians. None!

The impetus for cleaning up TS really was the Port Authority. It was truly the major spot were the middle class came into direct contact with the ills of the city. The building itself had become deteriorated and infested with the Homeless, Hustlers, and runaway/throwaway kids. The kids became a real problem, as crowds of them would roam the building and the area acting as such kids of nothing would act. The Homeless and and many of the kids live in the Port Authority and they literally took over the bathrooms. The Port Authority and the back streets in and around the building leading from it and parkinglots to the Grand Central and 6th Ave business areas became so unpleasant to the suburbanites that it was becoming politically an embarrassment.

The second impetus to the cleanup was the prolonged and severe drop in tourist revenues. TS had gone from a tourist attraction to a detraction. This includes the theater trade. Suburbanites stopped going to the theater!! The city was losing major tax dollars from this trade, at a time when there wasn't much other revenue.

That along with the far sighted investment in the renovation and promotion of the Milford Plaza and the construction of the Marriot. Also, although technically not par of TS, the renovation and opening of the Grand Hyatt and Trumps entry must be accounted as well.

These things created political pressure, resulting in the backing and election of a Republican Mayor from outside of and not a part of the corrupt Democrat political machine.

This is something to seriously recognize, while institutied with the Koch era tax abatements which spurred development and gentrification, the revitilization of Manhattan and the five boroughs was manifested under a non-machine, non-corrupt, non-Democratic mayorial administration; and that it was the Mayor office which lead the the way. For the fist time in decades providing true and effective leadership resulting in true long term improvement.

The era of Guiliani and Bloomberg is coming to an end.

What is the future of this city? Re-establishment of the 'Machine'? The election of another of the corrupt Democrats? A return to the corrupt policies which perpetuated the city's decline?

The economics are in place, Wall Street and tax revenues continue to be in decline. Layoffs and cutbacks, as well as police reductions and an increase in crime. Al thatMs needed is a return to politics as it was, with the election of any of the present candidates, one who is already found to be corrupt, another who has a history of 'losing or pehaps 'misplacing' tax dollars to the tune of a billion, and the rest, from sexual perverts to machine incompetents whose corruption is yet to be revealed to the public.

A return to the 70s is inevitable, and probably the only the thing which can stem the tide of gentrification. Upon which surely the decline will be on us.

[rlrl]

on 6th avenue between 42 street and 46th streets, and for awhile there in the early 80's even the corner of 42nd and 6th seemed like 42nd and 7th or 8th. however you say there were hookers on 6th up to 58th street, this is news to me and if so they must be a different breed than the ones on 8th Avenue. you have the Hilton and all those big boxy office towers on 6th and farther up past that it gets that really cool slick feeling getting close to central park hard to picture prostitution that was not discrete on 6th Avenue. why 6th, why not 7th? 6th is farther east. hard to picture

what about in the 40's on 6th i would not imagine they hung around the Exxon Plaza, Mcgraw Hill Plaza, Celanese Plaza or the Westpoint Stevens Plaza maybe on the sidestreets?