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No, no, no. Invalid. False equivalency at its finest.
You'll notice, if you watch the New York Gay Pride parade (and most others), that churches, synagogues, and a whole variety of modern-thinking religious institutions participate. And you'll notice that there isn't a gay lobby attempting to persecute Christians or other religious people in this country. Christian kids don't grow up in America being ridiculed and belittled by gay classmates on account of their Christianity.
Big deal. Churches that support gay issues are welcome in the Gay Price parade. Whoopee!
When the Mormon Church or the Catholic Church participates in the Gay Pride parade, let me know.
Guess that article right there disproves decades of research on the correlation between sexual orientation and genetic predisposition.
Guess outliers don't exist in the world.
Submit it to the journal of sexual medicine for peer review.
When the Mormon Church or the Catholic Church participates in the Gay Pride parade, let me know.
I'd be happy to. Here's a link showing a map of the cities in which a group called "Mormons Building Bridges" marched in Gay Pride parades across the country. Between 300 and 400 straight Mormons (including me) marched in Salt Lake City's Pride Parade last June. Hundreds more participated in cities all over the U.S. We all wore our Sunday best (to make it clear we were really Mormons) and skipped church that day to show our support for our LGBT brothers and sisters.
I don't think you followed the chronology of this thread...
For the record, I don't care what folks call me. My point is, when religious people go around using their religion to bash other groups - as happened here - or trying to pass laws/regulations to harm other groups on the account of religious doctrine, they should fully expect their religion to come under fire. In our broader society and on public/Internet forums like this, you'll rarely find LGBT folks who are attempting to persecute Christians, or who spend their time trying to attack Christianity/religion for the heck of it.
Religious conservatives start these arguments, and don't like it when their quite easily criticized belief system is, in fact, criticized.
What does the "chronology of the thread" have to do with the very statements and the very points that you intended to make in your last post?
I think your point is an insufficient way to explain how you can justify a collectively insulting everyone of a particular religion simply due to the fact that there are a minority of extremist segments within that very religion that find your lifestyle abhorrent.
Meanwhile, you conveniently ignore and insult the majority of those who do not.
If you have a problem with religious conservatives, then keep your argument within the scope of "religious conservatives" not "Christianity."
You can't prove that there aren't any unicorns living in Saturn. Or that Zeus and Apollo aren't actual deities.
Hence why they are called "opinions"
And theoretically within the field of mathematics, a scientist can deductively provide evidence that the likelyhood of "unicorns living on Saturn" is an improbability.
Besides, bordering or the line of absurdity and stupid isn't the best way to make your point, not even on a public forum.
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That doesn't mean holding those 'beliefs' shouldn't be looked upon with a high degree of skepticism
You consistently fail to understand that those "beliefs" are the beliefs of those individuals or segments within the community, NOT with the religion itself.
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The bible not only commends slavery, it also encourages it.
The bible also encourages brotherhood, and camaraderie with your fellow man. Religious doctorine is highly subjective and interpretive. Just because someone interprets the bible to mean one thing--doesn't automatically mean that it translates that into the same line of reasoning for everyone else.
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You can call believing that ' slavery is a good thing because the bible says so' an "opinion".
I would call that bigotry. And I know that most (relatively reasonable) Christians would agree with that.
The bible does not encourage slavery, it condemns it. Again, it's all in how you interpret it. Interpretation and opinion operate on the same playing field.
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The same applies to homosexuality. Any person with a slight level of intelligence would realize that claiming respect for beliefs that are discriminatory based on the writings of an archaic book is complete and total BS
Who said anything about endorsing "beliefs" that are "discriminatory?"
And anyone with the slightest bit of intelligence would realize that the interpretations (i.e. their particular "beliefs" based on how they read the bible are what create that level of ignorance. And for the 5th time, just incase you couldn't follow the bouncing ball....not everyone interprets the bible the same, therefore their "beliefs" cannot be the same.
And theoretically within the field of mathematics, a scientist can deductively provide evidence that the likelyhood of "unicorns living on Saturn" is an improbability.
Oh yea?
Show me how it's proven.
I'll wait for you..
And How about Zeus? Can you disprove his existence?
He's the god of Gods after all.
As a smarter guy once said.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
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Originally Posted by itshim
Besides, bordering or the line of absurdity and stupid isn't the best way to make your point, not even on a public forum.
It's the same line of reasoning that's made for religious claims.
So I agree with you... they're absurd and even stupid.
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Originally Posted by itshim
You consistently fail to understand that those "beliefs" are the beliefs of those individuals or segments within the community, NOT with the religion itself.
Nah. Wrong again.
All abrahamic religions condemn homosexuality. The bible clearly says "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."
How much room for interpretation do you think There's In that quote?
It's just an opinion right ? Double
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Originally Posted by itshim
The bible does not encourage slavery, it condemns it. Again, it's all in how you interpret it. Interpretation and opinion operate on the same playing field.
Who said anything about endorsing "beliefs" that are "discriminatory?"
And anyone with the slightest bit of intelligence would realize that the interpretations (i.e. their particular "beliefs" based on how they read the bible are what create that level of ignorance. And for the 5th time, just incase you couldn't follow the bouncing ball....not everyone interprets the bible the same, therefore their "beliefs" cannot be the same.
Apparently you don't know your bible very well.
Let me help you out.
Here's some passages FYI.
Leviticus 25:44
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."
Titus 2:9
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them"
Eph 6:5
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."
Seems pretty clear to me.
without much room for interpretation it encourages people Just be a submissive slave and obey their master.
Bottom line here is; you can believe in all the fairy tales ancient men wrote about. I used to believe in santa Claus myself, but once your "beliefs" are used to discriminate people that's when you've crossed the line and I can call out that BS for what it is...Fairy tales
Last edited by likeminas; 02-23-2014 at 08:15 AM..
Yeah after you show me that there is a greater probability that there are unicorns on Saturn
As a matter of fact, we can play on planet earth and wait until after you can provide evidence that there is a genome that supports your assertion "people are born gay" or have a genetic predisposition for being "born straight"
we'll all wait...
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And How about Zeus? Can you disprove his existence?
He's the god of Gods after all.
Sure, just as easily as you prove that he does...
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As a smarter guy once said.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
I'm not sure what this has to do with your assertion that people are factually "born gay"....
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It's the same line of reasoning that's made for religious claims.
So I agree with you... they're absurd and even stupid.
Again, it's your opinion, just as it is my opinion and the opinions of many others that people are not "born gay."
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Nah. Wrong again.
All abrahamic religions condemn homosexuality. The bible clearly says "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
How much room for interpretation do you think There's In that quote?
It's just an opinion right ? Double
Negative, you're still off the mark and fail to grasp the basic tenants of Christian faith
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. — Matthew 7:1-2
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. — Luke 6:41-42
Where in the new testament are you saying that any man has the right to judge and condemn another person about their sexual orientation? You can point to "Abrahamic" passages all day, just as I can point out passages that endorses humanity for all people regardless of their orientation.
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Bottom line here is; you can believe in all the fairy tales ancient men wrote about. I used to believe in santa Claus myself, but once your "beliefs" are used to discriminate people that's when you've crossed the line and I can call out that BS for what it is...Fairy tales
Like I stated in my original point, if you refer to someone's religious faith as "fairy tales" and they in return adopt an extremist viewpoint of retaliation by referring to homosexual practices as unnatural, abhorrent, social deviency...then in my opinion you are both pretty much getting what you deserve. IMPO homosexuals can fight that uphill battle on their own. I personally refuse to condemn Christianity because of your preference to be gay.
Either way the overwhelming majority of people in this country are not athiests, and believe in God and/are "religious" on some level...yet the growing majority support rights for gays and homosexuals...that very fact blows the very notion out of the water that one cannot be a Christian and still support rights for all sexual orientations.
Yeah after you show me that there is a greater probability that there are unicorns on Saturn
I think you're not understanding the point I'm making.
Let me make it simpler for you. Logic 101:
If I claim there are Unicorns living on Saturn, or in a religious context, I claim that Zeus is the real god of gods. Then it's on me to prove that those claims are true.
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
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Originally Posted by itshim
As a matter of fact, we can play on planet earth and wait until after you can provide evidence that there is a genome that supports your assertion "people are born gay" or have a genetic predisposition for being "born straight"
we'll all wait...
Well, you didn't have to wait long, because unlike religious folks, many of my assertions are based on scientific research/studies, and not on tales written by archaic men.
"The role of genetics in male sexual orientation was investigated by pedigree and linkage analyses on 114 families of homosexual men. Increased rates of same-sex orientation were found in the maternal uncles and male cousins of these subjects, but not in their fathers or paternal relatives, suggesting the possibility of sex-linked transmission in a portion of the population. DNA linkage analysis of a selected group of 40 families in which there were two gay brothers and no indication of nonmaternal transmission revealed a correlation between homosexual orientation and the inheritance of polymorphic markers on the X chromosome in approximately 64 percent of the sib-pairs tested. The linkage to markers on Xq28, the subtelomeric region of the long arm of the sex chromosome, had a multipoint lod score of 4.0 (P = 10(-5), indicating a statistical confidence level of more than 99 percent that at least one subtype of male sexual orientation is genetically influenced."
Where in the new testament are you saying that any man has the right to judge and condemn another person about their sexual orientation? You can point to "Abrahamic" passages all day, just as I can point out passages that endorses humanity for all people regardless of their orientation.
It's not Abrahamic passages. It's the bible where I got those passages from.
Christianity is one of 3 Abrahamic religions.
I'd imagine you'd know those things.
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Originally Posted by itshim
Like I stated in my original point, if you refer to someone's religious faith as "fairy tales" and they in return adopt an extremist viewpoint of retaliation by referring to homosexual practices as unnatural, abhorrent, social deviency...then in my opinion you are both pretty much getting what you deserve. IMPO homosexuals can fight that uphill battle on their own. I personally refuse to condemn Christianity because of your preference to be gay.
I'm not homosexual myself, but I can understand gays getting pissed off at some religious nut-jobs discriminating against them based on stupid religious beliefs.
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Originally Posted by itshim
Either way the overwhelming majority of people in this country are not athiests, and believe in God and/are "religious" on some level...yet the growing majority support rights for gays and homosexuals...that very fact blows the very notion out of the water that one cannot be a Christian and still support rights for all sexual orientations.
There are a lot of 'Cafeteria Christians" out there, who cherry-pick from the bible. You probably are a good example. And I'm fine with that, as long as the parts they cherry-pick are good and loving to humankind.
Organized religions are on the decline all over the developed world, anyway.
Year after year, people are realizing that mythology is fascinating to read but probably shouldn't believe it as true.
So they had the St. Patrick's Day "Parade for all" yesterday in Queens, with DeBlasio heading the march. If their intent is to get the big 5th avenue parade to change policies, this thing should have the exact OPPOSITE effect. It was mostly a gay pride parade, with dudes in drag on a convertible cars, "queers" this and that banners, and every fringe cause you can imagine like raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour and banning the NYPD/FDNY from the 5th ave parade.
This is pretty much why the big parade has its policies, because it should be about Irish heritage & tradition, not for promoting every special interest cause or to gather attention for oneself
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