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The El's noise and darkness didn't seem to hurt Chicago.
Well it wouldn't would it? I mean that city does not have an alternative of extensive underground subway system.
Again if the NYC subway system had never been built then the elevated trains may have survived. But as with so many other things such as utilities for Manhattan at least trains are best underground.
Famous example of this is Park Avenue. Prior to covering over New York Central's ROW the area was not the high rent/property value place it has become today. That was even with trains running below grade level....
Well it wouldn't would it? I mean that city does not have an alternative of extensive underground subway system.
We're talking strictly about the noise and darkness that elevated subway tracks can do to a particular street. Not having other transportation options in other parts of the city doesn't change its effects on the street and the residents near it.
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Again if the NYC subway system had never been built then the elevated trains may have survived. But as with so many other things such as utilities for Manhattan at least trains are best underground.
I am not comparing which is better. I am just saying that the idea of the noise and darkness from El's don't seem to affect the streets' vibrancy in Chicago.
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Famous example of this is Park Avenue. Prior to covering over New York Central's ROW the area was not the high rent/property value place it has become today. That was even with trains running below grade level....
All parts of NY have risen in value since the 1900's. That has nothing to do with the trains running above or below ground.
We're talking strictly about the noise and darkness that elevated subway tracks can do to a particular street. Not having other transportation options in other parts of the city doesn't change its effects on the street and the residents near it.
I am not comparing which is better. I am just saying that the idea of the noise and darkness from El's don't seem to affect the streets' vibrancy in Chicago.
All parts of NY have risen in value since the 1900's. That has nothing to do with the trains running above or below ground.
Oh but yes, it does.
Park Avenue property would have increased in value had the NYCRR ROW not be covered over, but certainly have not become the place of wealth and status it has become. You only have to stand at 96th Street and Park Avenue to see the difference; the "wealth" stops exactly where the tracks come above ground.
As for Chicago's elevated trains and effects of; the same issues that caused many to want NYC's Els gone (privacy, noise, effects on property value, etc..) have been worked around and or accepted by those living in Chicago; and again for a good reason, the lines aren't going anywhere nor is there anything to replace them.
Anything above 96 St isn't as wealthy as below regardless of which street it is. Also, I don't know why you brought up a below ground Park Ave as an example of an El in the first place.
Just like your explanation for Chicago's continued tolerance of the El, the same would have happened in NY as well. If it wasn't torn down, it too would be an accepted part of the landscape here.
My mother wrote her doctoral thesis on the destruction of the Bronx.
One of the main factors for demise of my hometown/boro was the tearing down of the 3rd Ave El * which left the geographic center of the Bronx isolated and cut-off from Manhattan.
Fordham University Publishing, 1986
*not so fun fact: much of the steel used to build the World Trade Center came from the 3rd Ave El.[/quote]
Hate to burst your bubble, but I don't think that's correct. Both towers of the World Trade Center were topped out by mid-1971. I was a student at Fordham University in the early to mid 1970s, and as I recall, the Third Avenue El ceased service in 1973, with demolition of it continuing for at least a year afterwards. After the El's demise the MTA started an express bus service that paralleled where the line had been.
I can't speak for what social or economic impact the El's absence had on the South Bronx. But I will say that for the stretch I was most familiar with, from Fordham Road to the northern terminus at Gun Hill Road, removing the El removed a major eyesore (not that this stretch of Webster Avenue was much to look at in any event). The El created a gloomy, tunnel-like atmosphere on the streets beneath it. I only rode it a few times, but I also remember that the subway cars used on the El were so old that they should have been donated to the Smithsonian.
Fun fact: on the day service on the Third Avenue El ended, some Fordham University students sneaked a live ram (the college mascot) aboard the final train that ever ran.
By the late 1960s. Some of the tracks and structure of the 3rd Avenue El were removed in Manhattan and in Mott haven section of south bronx. Possibly the tracks were used to build the towers, if not rest of the wtc facilities.
NYC proposing a street car Blyn to Queens service that will cost hundreds of millions. Rapid transit isnt cheap. Bronx had a line that was torn down. The central Bronx is just missing that type of service again. Less fossil fuel burning would be ideal. To rebuild an ugly elevated line would be impossible today. Just imagine if the federal govt would spend on infrastructure as a job plan. Subways to coop City, a subway or light rail from Bronx to Queens. Too pricey for NYC to pay. But could you imagine
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