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Thanks for the explanation. What would you say is the percentage?
I can't imagine that they're even a large minority. Civil Service exams aren't exactly difficult in any sense of the word. Can these workers put off taking the exam? It may be that some percentage are just putting off taking the exam.
Oh I don't know about now "not exactly difficult" some civil servant exams are; FDNY lost a huge "equality" court case recently and was ordered by a federal judge to hire a slew of African Americans and Latino/Hispanics because somehow they couldn't pass the previous exam in high enough numbers. NYPD went the same way years ago IIRC.
He means "provisional" employees. They are in the union, but never passed the civil service exam, so they have limited union rights and limited job security, thus they are easier to fire for cause and the first to go when there is layoffs.
Thanks for the explanation. What would you say is the percentage?
I can't imagine that they're even a large minority. Civil Service exams aren't exactly difficult in any sense of the word. Can these workers put off taking the exam? It may be that some percentage are just putting off taking the exam.
They are not difficult. Even though you pass, their is a chance you wont get called. Example some Civil service exams go by list number. If one scores high, a good chance he or she may get a call from the agency, but if one scores low but still passes, he or she might receive a letter saying thank you, but no thanks. Or some agencies might do a raffle and select a random pool of those who pass the exam. A good example is this. 2 years ago I took the NYS Court Officer exam. I scored a 72. I narrowly failed the exam, but passed. However My list number was in the high teens out of 20k who passed the exam. The NYS Court had selected their candidates and I was not picked due to my list number ranking.
As for provisional workers? They should not have a hard time getting to department field positions. They know when the exams are going to come out, background of the candidate/employee should be easy to access upon investigation.
Also the process its self is difficult. Have a health condition? a good chance he or she may be disqualified, have bad credit? One will get disqualified. Child support and alimony payments? disqualified due to character, dishonorable discharge or disciplinary actions taken against a candidate during school? A good chance he or she the candidate may get turned down by the agency. Fail the psych exam, a good chance you will have to wait some years to take another exam, or spend tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to get your named cleared. Have a warrant against you, and did not know about it, and you go for processing at an agency, you will get arrested upon the background check. Fired from a job, or faced disciplinary action against your previous or current employer? Cant do 25 situps, cant to 25 pushups, cant run 1.5 miles in 12 minutes, or cant do a JST in a given time, candidate will be turned down. A good chance a candidate may or will get turned down. Civil Service exams and process is no joke, very lengthy, and a time consuming run around for agency and candidate. Sad part is that only a small number of applicants get in. Also agencies have to hire a certain number of minorities and women.
My advice is this, take these exams during college. PAPD, PAOEM, MTAPD, Court Officer, NYSDOC. These jobs are not as dangerous as city jobs, and pay far more money. Try neighboring jobs of Westchester and Nassau County. The city of NY should be the last resort not because of the pay and or the applicants, but the safety of the job and putting your life at risk.
Last edited by Bronxguyanese; 02-27-2016 at 10:47 PM..
Civil Service jobs in NYC are the best and many times only way out for those not going to college.
In what other professions (apart from union blue collar but even these jobs need an apprenticeship) can a non-college grad (most with poor HS grades) earn a decent middle to upper middle class living?
For many it's either NYC civil service or working for <$15/hr for most of their lives.
The first part is false. Most of the Civil Service positons require folks to have 30-60 college credits for qualifications. Even provisional jobs require a 4 year degree at times.
They are not difficult. Even though you pass, their is a chance you wont get called. Example some Civil service exams go by list number. If one scores high, a good chance he or she may get a call from the agency, but if one scores low but still passes, he or she might receive a letter saying thank you, but no thanks. Or some agencies might do a raffle and select a random pool of those who pass the exam. A good example is this. 2 years ago I took the NYS Court Officer exam. I scored a 72. I narrowly failed the exam, but passed. However My list number was in the high teens out of 20k who passed the exam. The NYS Court had selected their candidates and I was not picked due to my list number ranking.
As for provisional workers? They should not have a hard time getting to department field positions. They know when the exams are going to come out, background of the candidate/employee should be easy to access upon investigation.
Also the process its self is difficult. Have a health condition? a good chance he or she may be disqualified, have bad credit? One will get disqualified. Child support and alimony payments? disqualified due to character, dishonorable discharge or disciplinary actions taken against a candidate during school? A good chance he or she the candidate may get turned down by the agency. Fail the psych exam, a good chance you will have to wait some years to take another exam, or spend tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to get your named cleared. Have a warrant against you, and did not know about it, and you go for processing at an agency, you will get arrested upon the background check. Fired from a job, or faced disciplinary action against your previous or current employer? Cant do 25 situps, cant to 25 pushups, cant run 1.5 miles in 12 minutes, or cant do a JST in a given time, candidate will be turned down. A good chance a candidate may or will get turned down. Civil Service exams and process is no joke, very lengthy, and a time consuming run around for agency and candidate. Sad part is that only a small number of applicants get in. Also agencies have to hire a certain number of minorities and women.
My advice is this, take these exams during college. PAPD, PAOEM, MTAPD, Court Officer, NYSDOC. These jobs are not as dangerous as city jobs, and pay far more money. Try neighboring jobs of Westchester and Nassau County. The city of NY should be the last resort not because of the pay and or the applicants, but the safety of the job and putting your life at risk.
There are other civil service positions that have nothing to do with law enforcement. There's HRA. There's the post office (it's federal). There is the social security administration. There's the buildings department, the health department, libraries, DMV, the department of education, and a host of other positions. Technically teachers are civil service. APS and ACS are caseworkers that deal with the elderly and children.
Of course there's risk for being a police officer, but at the same time it's rare that a police officer gets killed.
The relative importance of getting a BA is becoming less important.
However, an advanced degree is becoming more important.
Connect the dots. You can't get an advanced degree without getting a BA first.
I agree, a bachelors degree in engineering, or business has more value in terms of career prospects than a degree in English, or Philosophy; although a degree in these areas would be useful for attending law school, otherwise, or will have to settle with a teaching, or pursue a doctorate and teach college. Other good areas are the sciences, yet today, a master's degree is needed to succeed in these areas.
If you know how to play the academic game college may be far less expensive. Start in a community college, then transfer to a state college, save up for as better graduate program.
There are other civil service positions that have nothing to do with law enforcement. There's HRA. There's the post office (it's federal). There is the social security administration. There's the buildings department, the health department, libraries, DMV, the department of education, and a host of other positions. Technically teachers are civil service. APS and ACS are caseworkers that deal with the elderly and children.
Of course there's risk for being a police officer, but at the same time it's rare that a police officer gets killed.
I was just using law enformcent as an example. DSNY one has to pass an agility test by lifting and throwing heavy bags of garbage. Being a teacher in NYC requires one have to have a masters degree. Liberian also needs to have an Masters degree. DMV, Social Security, health department might be the only ones on high school, or 2 year college degree level for entry positions. Social and case workers for the city also have Masters degrees.
I was just using law enformcent as an example. DSNY one has to pass an agility test by lifting and throwing heavy bags of garbage. Being a teacher in NYC requires one have to have a masters degree. Liberian also needs to have an Masters degree. DMV, Social Security, health department might be the only ones on high school, or 2 year college degree level for entry positions. Social and case workers for the city also have Masters degrees.
Basic employees for HRA do not have master's degrees. You can do that on a bachelor's degree.
Being a teacher in NYC long term requires you to get a master's degree, however if you took the right courses you can get your initial certification and start teaching. You can take classes in the evening and get your masters.
Not that there's anything wrong with police work, but you certainly have a lot of options outside of it.
I think for most "white collar" jobs, the trend has been that they are requiring more formal education...not less. In fact, I would say that decades from now, having a Bachelors degree will be a prerequisite for the majority of jobs which is upsetting for many people to think about, for good reason. College is expensive and not accessible to everyone. If anything, having a Bachelors degree may seem like a "waste of time" because more people are getting them. It is not as impressive to have one as it used to be....which should be an indication of the changing job market.
I think getting a degree with poor job prospects could be a waste of time. I dropped out of a prestigious NYC school as a music major. With my circumstances at the time.... it was not realistic. Life is not a straight line path for everyone. I think it comes down to what someone wants out of life, their circumstances (because one strategy may not work for everyone) and what they can handle. I do not think someone needs a degree to make a decent living, but it makes economic mobility harder. Linking this to NYC, not having a degree in an expensive city could be a lot more damaging then in Iowa where the COL and competition for work is lower.
One thing, I wish I focused on when I was younger, was figuring out the sort of life I wanted to live and then figuring out the most logical way to achieve that. I was not realistic with my expectations and focused too much on an end goal instead of how I wanted to live my life day to day. I don't think there is a one size fits all answer for anyone when it comes to pursuing higher education.
You should go to college if what you want to be requires a college degree, if you wish to become master electrician then you dont need a 4 year degree, you would need a good apprenticeship program through an electrical contractor or company plus taking classes at a 2 year tech school in the evening after work.
I went to tech school for mechanics and refrigeration. I currently work for Chevrolet as a technician and make 24.50 per hour or roughly 50,960 dollars annually. I have no student debt cause I'm prior service Army and the GI Bill helped cover my technical training plus General Motors has a service technical college where I can continue training for free, thats an example of how a trade works.
My wife has a college degree in management from Central Florida and is a store manager and board certified Cpht for Walgreens Pharmacies. Her salary is higher then mine cause with bonus shes around 72,650 annually. Her way took her about 14 years to make it to the top, she started with Walgreens in the photo lab at 8.50 per hour and now runs the place, having a business degree plus experience within the company plus a relocation to a new market is how it happened for her, in flooded markets there is no room to go up, have to be willing to move, thats an example of how a college degree can work.
My wife has no student debt either cause she had scholarships and grants, shes super smart, common sense well...
To be honest what you really want to do in life is what you will be good at and will find satisfaction in. I wanted to be a Christmas tree farmer but I know more about Chevrolets then I do about trees plus I find satisfaction in hard work, desk jobs are bad for your back and can make you out of shape.
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