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When I was asking about what you called "rougher" neighborhoods, I wasn't trying to be cuisine specific like asking if they had authentic Chinese. What I meant was how would you describe the overall food for, let's say, a West Indian neighborhood right now. Would most of the restaurants be considered authentic or not?
For a neighborhood that is gentrifying (changing from a low-income neighborhood to a higher-income one), how would you describe the food landscape? Are the number of authentic restaurants going up or down or staying the same?
Regarding authentic Chinese, you say that they only exist in either very gentrified/bougie neighborhoods or immigrant enclaves in the city. Based on this, would you say then that gentrifying neighborhoods (which are sort of in-between) are unlikely to see authentic Chinese restaurants opening there until after they're fully gentrified? And same goes for Mexican, Japanese, Korean, etc.
And then for suburban areas, you say that authentic Chinese restaurants do exist in areas without sizable Chinese populations and those are found in the very gentrified/bougie neighborhoods. I guess I'm surprised about that. I thought almost all were the Americanized type with some exceptions that had no correlation with income.
Regarding the differences between authentic restaurants of a particular cuisine in very gentrified neighborhoods with those in immigrant neighborhoods, you say they are 1) price/portion, 2) higher-end on average in the gentrified neighborhoods with no hole-in-the-wall places, and 3) generally similar flavors/menus with just a few changes here and there. Are these very gentrified neighborhoods that you're describing in downtown/midtown Manhattan or in more residential areas like the UWS/UES/Brooklyn Heights/Park Slope/etc? If you were referring to the former, what is your view on the latter? I personally find there are occasional good authentic places in downtown/midtown where they're catering to office workers, people hanging out in the city, and some foreign/international residents (i.e. students, some Japanese, etc). But very few good authentic places in the more residential areas.
Finally, how would you compare the non-authentic restaurants in very gentrified neighborhoods with the non-authentic places in "rougher"/non-gentrified neighborhoods?
I think I was pretty clear--it's not just rougher neighborhoods. It's most neighborhoods outside of ethnic enclaves and bougie/very gentrified neighborhoods. A West Indian neighborhood is very likely to have authentic West Indian restaurants. That's what I mean by cuisine specific to that immigrant enclave.
For a neighborhood that's gentrifying, I don't really know since you sort of have to have stuck around to have seen what happened. I think the trend is that some of the authentic restaurants pre-gentrification stay around for a bit, maybe a long while, though I think most end up closing in a slow death as most of the clientele move away. I've seen that happen in my neck of the woods in Brooklyn, and you can argue that something like Di Fara is sort of that. I think generally it goes down--but that also happens when a neighborhood isn't so much gentrifying as its original resident community being displaced by another community or abandons a neighborhood and another community comes in to buy in a cheap and somewhat emptied out area.
I said it holds somewhat true for suburban neighborhoods, or more exactly, the commercial strip of that. It held true for affluent parts of the San Gabriel Valley in Los Angeles which were further out from the thick of Chinese suburbia though maybe that's exceptional. It's mostly true for urban NYC though.
There are several Chinese restaurants in the Villages, Midtown, Williamsburg, and UWS with dishes that taste authentic. I'm not sure about Upper East Side or Brooklyn Heights. Park Slope has a really good and authentic sushi place and supposedly the Uzbek restaurant there is very authentic.
Now, I'm not sure if this was always the trend. I'm pretty young on this board, I think, and I've been in this city a bit shy of a decade off and on, but I don't think this whole thing about eating authentic food or even good food aside from value was really that big of a thing when I was a kid. It seems a lot more recent to me.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-31-2018 at 06:31 PM..
For a neighborhood that is gentrifying (changing from a low-income neighborhood to a higher-income one), how would you describe the food landscape? Are the number of authentic restaurants going up or down or staying the same?
I would ask, is the food any good. Because I said far earlier in this thread, it may often be authentic, but prepared by someone who isn't a stellar chef. Especially in areas where the general food iq is low.
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Regarding authentic Chinese, you say that they only exist in either very gentrified/bougie neighborhoods or immigrant enclaves in the city.
It's hard to get decent Chinese in almost every area in NYC outside of Chinatowns. Perhaps I'm spoiled by I was born on Mott Street. The problem is cliche menus, but even worse, too much sugar. I no longer order a few stead dishes anywhere because their sweeter than ice-cream. It didn't used to be that way.
OyCrumbler, you don't have to respond to my last post. I'm really not going to change my mind on this topic. My point earlier which I still maintain is that gentrification and authenticity have nothing to do with each. People with more money want more options and nicer things so any new business that provides an upgrade to a neighborhood, chain or not, authentic or not, is something that could signal gentrification.
I think the authenticity argument is weird in that there are certain cuisines like some Asian ones and things like tacos that have gotten really trendy in recent years. So we could very well see some of these authentic places opening up in gentrifying neighborhoods and people, gentrifiers and non-gentrifiers alike, would probably enjoy them. But the offset is that these new places are likely replacing the older authentic stuff of whatever ethnicity/demographic is being displaced in the neighborhood. So saying that gentrifiers want authentic things is not true. They really want certain "authentic" things and I put authentic in quotes because usually they are not the same as the food served in immigrant neighborhoods. Not that this is bad at all and I personally enjoy a lot of these not-so-authentic places just as much or sometimes more than the authentic ones. But let's not go overboard with the authenticity argument.
Does it have to be one or the other? People with more money tend to want more variety period. They also have higher standards for their food. If that means inauthentic or not; the overall trend is that the quality of food is better. I live in a predominately Hispanic area. All the restaurants are hispanic origin splitting hairs between Puerto Rican, Dominican and Mexican. Not a one (at least so far) is high quality. So who cares if authentic if the quality is questionable. So to go full circle; higher income areas have higher quality options; whether they be authentic or not. The funny thing though is that I never saw a poor person eat at a quality restaurant and not enjoy it; and appreciate the differences. Some cuisines are cheap to produce because the ingredients are cheap. So cost should not be a factor in quality. But I suppose finding a good chef at the right price is really the issue.
I think I was pretty clear--it's not just rougher neighborhoods. It's most neighborhoods outside of ethnic enclaves and bougie/very gentrified neighborhoods. A West Indian neighborhood is very likely to have authentic West Indian restaurants. That's what I mean by cuisine specific to that immigrant enclave.
For a neighborhood that's gentrifying, I don't really know since you sort of have to have stuck around to have seen what happened. I think the trend is that some of the authentic restaurants pre-gentrification stay around for a bit, maybe a long while, though I think most end up closing in a slow death as most of the clientele move away. I've seen that happen in my neck of the woods in Brooklyn, and you can argue that something like Di Fara is sort of that. I think generally it goes down--but that also happens when a neighborhood isn't so much gentrifying as its original resident community being displaced by another community or abandons a neighborhood and another community comes in to buy in a cheap and somewhat emptied out area.
I said it holds somewhat true for suburban neighborhoods, or more exactly, the commercial strip of that. It held true for affluent parts of the San Gabriel Valley in Los Angeles which were further out from the thick of Chinese suburbia though maybe that's exceptional. It's mostly true for urban NYC though.
There are several Chinese restaurants in the Villages, Midtown, Williamsburg, and UWS with dishes that taste authentic. I'm not sure about Upper East Side or Brooklyn Heights. Park Slope has a really good and authentic sushi place and supposedly the Uzbek restaurant there is very authentic.
Now, I'm not sure if this was always the trend. I'm pretty young on this board, I think, and I've been in this city a bit shy of a decade off and on, but I don't think this whole thing about eating authentic food or even good food aside from value was really that big of a thing when I was a kid. It seems a lot more recent to me.
Well, I guess my point is what "rough" neighborhood doesn't have immigrants? When you brought up "rough" neighborhoods and how they lack authentic Chinese, all the neighborhoods that came to my mind have immigrants and minorities. So they have authentic food as well, just not the trendy Asian ones.
I was also confused by how "very gentrified/bougie" were being used, but I get now that you include the downtown/midtown areas which have tons of restaurants and are not really residential in nature. Which yes, of course, have authentic ethnic restaurants here and there among the hundreds of other Americanized/less authentic/whatever restaurants. And then for the "bougie" residential neighborhoods, well, it sounds like you had better luck than me because when I lived in some of them, it was hard for me to find good ethnic places until after some of the cuisines got trendy. And even then, these new places were usually nowhere as good as what could be found in the ethnic neighborhoods. And a few others started out good but then had to dumb things down after awhile to adapt to the local clientele.
Regarding the authentic Chinese places, I think some are pretty good in Midtown. They're also mainly filled with Chinese people when I go.
I think some of the pre-gentrification authentic restaurants die a faster death than you suggest. Basically upon their next lease renewal as landlords seek higher rents.
Uzbek in Park Slope is interesting! I've only been to one Uzbek place before and that was in Rego Park.
I think food overall has gotten really trendy in the past decade. Not just authentic ethnic food, but other US regional styles, more international food (imported European and Asian chains), artisanal bread, better coffee. The internet and technology has played a huge role. A ton of food media, Yelp, etc. If you are curious about any ethnic food, it's easy to read up on it and find places to go. 10+ years ago, it was more word of mouth and leg work to learn and explore.
Does it have to be one or the other? People with more money tend to want more variety period. They also have higher standards for their food. If that means inauthentic or not; the overall trend is that the quality of food is better. I live in a predominately Hispanic area. All the restaurants are hispanic origin splitting hairs between Puerto Rican, Dominican and Mexican. Not a one (at least so far) is high quality. So who cares if authentic if the quality is questionable. So to go full circle; higher income areas have higher quality options; whether they be authentic or not. The funny thing though is that I never saw a poor person eat at a quality restaurant and not enjoy it; and appreciate the differences. Some cuisines are cheap to produce because the ingredients are cheap. So cost should not be a factor in quality. But I suppose finding a good chef at the right price is really the issue.
I think we're saying the same thing. I don't think it matters whether the new businesses are chains or authentic or whatever as long as the quality is better. I think there are some people though who automatically assume that the cheaper ethnic places are not good quality and that's not always the case. Some are mediocre definitely and I guess if you require organic meats and produce, none of these places will meet your needs. But some of these places can be quite good.
I think we're saying the same thing. I don't think it matters whether the new businesses are chains or authentic or whatever as long as the quality is better. I think there are some people though who automatically assume that the cheaper ethnic places are not good quality and that's not always the case. Some are mediocre definitely and I guess if you require organic meats and produce, none of these places will meet your needs. But some of these places can be quite good.
I don't require organic. You have me confused with someone else. I do like high quality though. I was married to a professional chef who worked with David Boulet, Judy Rodgers, Tom Colicchio and a bunch of other heavies. This after coming from an already foodie family.
[quote=Kefir King;50888059]I was married to a professional chef who worked with David Boulet, Judy Rodgers, Tom Colicchio and a bunch of other heavies.
Did he like the food on Mott Street?
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Originally Posted by NYer23
If you want food comparable to DANIEL or RESTAURANT BOULUD be prepared to drop a several hundred for each person.
Talking Mott Street and Daniel Boulud in the same thread is speaking two entirely different languages.
I dunno. I didn't know him when I was a baby. The food on Mott Street was Chinese food in relation to Chinatown ergo my Chinese food pallot being formed with authentic chinese.
It's a myth that you need to spend big bucks on top chefs. It used to be true but not so much anymore. Casa Enrique isn't all that expensive, for example. It's one of the top Mexican in the city. It's become increasingly true that you can get really good quality food for not much. Personally, I hated the food at Riverpark. I was at a conference there and the catered side, was less than stellar. It's all in a name. In fact, there is a shortage of qualified chefs in NYC and almost all restaraunts have had to compromise. (It would help if they paid a lot better. They pay crap money.)
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