Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New York > New York City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-09-2018, 08:21 AM
 
31,910 posts, read 26,989,302 times
Reputation: 24816

Advertisements

Then you have this famous story: Streetscapes/52nd Street and Fifth Avenue; The Jeweler That Conquered a Millionaire's Row - The New York Times


People like the Vanderbilt family were dead serious about keeping "out siders" and other undesirables away from their homes. Frequently they bought up a lot or lots, home or homes to keep them out of the "wrong" hands.


Sometimes these properties became homes for their children (wedding gifts), or another family member.


Now about that famous pearl necklace and Cartier's ; well leave us say the latter got a much better deal. https://pearlsinternational.com/house-necklace-bought/
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-09-2018, 09:01 AM
 
Location: New York City
19,061 posts, read 12,723,110 times
Reputation: 14783
love reading about that history, imagine being alive back them (so long as you weren't poor and living in some slum tenement)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-10-2018, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
25,368 posts, read 37,084,455 times
Reputation: 12769
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeJones View Post
love reading about that history, imagine being alive back them (so long as you weren't poor and living in some slum tenement)

Yes, it would have been nice to have been a Vanderbilt or a Carnegie back then. One factual discrepancy irked me. The narrator said that Alva Vanderbilt got both Marble House and the Fifth Avenuie residence in the divorce settlement but
Quote:
Before long the drawing rooms of Fifth Avenue were shaken by Alva’s suit for divorce, citing William’s extramarital dalliances. She walked away with $10 million and much real estate, including the imperial Marble House in Newport. But William retained the Fifth Avenue mansion.
wiki

Last edited by Kefir King; 02-10-2018 at 08:15 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2018, 03:30 PM
 
15,590 posts, read 15,677,065 times
Reputation: 21999
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Actually, no, that isn't totally correct.
At least in the USA those with great wealth during the "Gilded Age" had access to every mod con available and insisted their homes were equipped with same. As such can assure you they all had indoor plumbing including flushing toilets. Well at least for the living quarters of the homeowners and their guests, perhaps some servants quarters still had slop jars.....

We know this not just from plans, designs and other records of these homes, but period accounts kept in diaries. You can search online for period trade publications showing all sorts of "modern" plumbing and bath fixtures.

The elementary school one attended was built in late 1800's and still had original lavatories with flush toilets.

During the Gilded Age there was a huge "gold rush" of titled (but poor) British aristocrats snapping up wealthy (but common) heiresses. Upon arriving at their new stately homes in England these young women were in for the shock of their lives. Not only did these centuries old piles often lack central heating, but indoor plumbing as well. These daughters of *Society* had never seen a slop bucket in their lives, but that is that they found. One new peeress wrote home to her mother in America that she didn't take off her furs except to get into bed. She also stopped going to dinner parties because houses were so darned cold and she couldn't keep on same.

Ironically it was the money these heiresses brought that paid for the modernization of many stately homes of England.
Okay, but I'm not sure it's ironic. I think it was fairly clear that the money was crucial to the marriage bargain.

The program specifically mentioned how Alva Vanderbilt manipulated the occasion of the marriage of her daughter Consuelo to the Duke of Marlborough as an avenue to her own (Alva's) ascent back into the upper tier of society.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2018, 07:49 PM
 
31,910 posts, read 26,989,302 times
Reputation: 24816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cida View Post
Okay, but I'm not sure it's ironic. I think it was fairly clear that the money was crucial to the marriage bargain.

The program specifically mentioned how Alva Vanderbilt manipulated the occasion of the marriage of her daughter Consuelo to the Duke of Marlborough as an avenue to her own (Alva's) ascent back into the upper tier of society.


Alva Vanderbilt was a force of nature, or a piece of work; take your choice. She wasn't very attractive (one society hostess described her as looking like a toad), and was what some might call "pushy". There is even talk that the famous divorce was based upon false grounds; meaning William K. Vanderbilt anxious or whatever to get rid of Alva did what many men did at the time; "arranged" an encounter in order to give his wife evidence for divorce.
https://bostoncommon-magazine.com/alva-Vanderbilt


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alva_Belmont




Yes, the Churchill family was (like many other British aristocrats at the time) hard up for cash, hence the marriages to American heiresses. Some of those alliances ended up well, others not so much; Consuelo Vanderbilt was not the only unhappy American heiress.




If you like period dramas about the Gilded Age suggest you read the book written by Edith Wharton, and or watch PBS miniseries "The Buccaneers".


Ms. Wharton of course was a member of society during the Gilded Age and thus knew what she was writing about.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Buccaneers



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k6K5lIvJPQ


As for forcing her way back into society, Alva Vanderbilt did so at a very high price to her daughter. Consuelo was basically forced into the marriage and almost literally had to be dragged up the aisle (weeping all the way). Though mother and daughter grew closer later on (especially after Consuelo divorced her husband), it still was a nasty thing to do to one's own daughter.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-12-2018, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
25,368 posts, read 37,084,455 times
Reputation: 12769
(especially after Consuelo divorced her husband), it still was a nasty thing to do to one's own daughter.


Yeah, Being forced to live in Blenheim must have been tough on her.


Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-12-2018, 11:25 AM
 
Location: New York City
19,061 posts, read 12,723,110 times
Reputation: 14783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King View Post
Yeah, Being forced to live in Blenheim must have been tough on her.
In the end she died just like 100% of everyone who lived in her day

Can't take it with you
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-12-2018, 04:34 PM
 
31,910 posts, read 26,989,302 times
Reputation: 24816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King View Post
(especially after Consuelo divorced her husband), it still was a nasty thing to do to one's own daughter.


Yeah, Being forced to live in Blenheim must have been tough on her.


As mentioned previously, don't let the good taste fool you.




Consuelo Vanderbilt like many of her peers already lived in vast houses (their parents usually owned several), *AND* they weren't historical shacks like Blenheim.


While the British aristocracy were living in great piles that were falling down around them, often without indoor plumbing, running hot and cold water, central heating, and in some cases totally wired for electricity, etc.... the mansions/homes built by Vanderbilts, Astors and others had every mod con available.


Again you can research this via recorded period accounts from American heiresses who became chatelaines of those great piles. Oh and by the way Consuelo Vanderbilt's money just as with nearly every other heiress went into propping up, repairing, rebuilding or just even keeping those huge piles of stone.


"The Duke’s motivation was primarily financial. Without Consuelo’s money his income would have been insufficient to maintain Blenheim Palace, let alone undertake the renovations he had in mind. The influx of Consuelo’s fortune allowed him to restore Blenheim to the glory that the great house still exhibits today."


When Consuelo Vanderbilt married the Duke of Marlborough | Christie's


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...sh-elite-4252/


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...ticle32103309/


https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-re...hanged-Britain


Full list of American heiresses who married European royalty or nobility:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ican_heiresses
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-12-2018, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Manhattan
8,936 posts, read 4,769,868 times
Reputation: 5970
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
While the British aristocracy were living in great piles that were falling down around them, often without indoor plumbing, running hot and cold water, central heating,

American heiresses who became chatelaines of those great piles. Oh and by the way Consuelo Vanderbilt's money just as with nearly every other heiress went into propping up, repairing, rebuilding or just even keeping those huge piles of stone.


"The Duke’s motivation was primarily financial.
Yeah. Read somewhere that the new money Americans were gaga over European nobility with titles. It was the thing to do because that was the one thing that they lacked. They wanted to buy prestige and lineage, blah, blah. Barbara Hutton went that route. Now that was a sad, sad case.

Last edited by Aeran; 02-12-2018 at 06:12 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-12-2018, 06:06 PM
 
31,910 posts, read 26,989,302 times
Reputation: 24816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeran View Post
Yeah. Read somewhere that the new money Americans were gaga over European nobility with titles. It was the thing to do because that was the one thing they lacked. Barbara Hutton went that route. Now that was a sad, sad case.
To be fair it was the "new" wealth such as the Vanderbilt and others at the time weren't after so much the titles, but what came with them; social recognition.


Then as still mostly now Americans are in awe of European titles, royalty, etc... though then it was a much stronger feeling. These new families had plenty of money, but no social recognition. Women like the famous "Mrs. Astor" weren't about to admit daughters of "nobodies" into their social circle even if they had tons of money. However once these ladies were princesses, duchesses, countesses, etc... well that was a different matter.


Barbara Hutton is best left out of this discussion; that poor sad creature had many marriages and while yes some were to royalty or nobility, they were not likely made for status or whatever.


If you ever want to read about how money "cannot buy happiness", pick up any good book about Miss. Hutton.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:




Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New York > New York City
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:59 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top