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I remember sitting in the classroom with the open admissions students. It got awkward - they could not always follow what was going on. Often the instructors had to stop and explain things that most of the other students just simply knew.
it is a nice thought that placing someone that may have had disadvantages with better students will eventually improve things...But with higher level challenges, it really begins to hold back the better students. Then no one wins, as animosity grows from both sides.
Right, that's my feeling about it, too. College is simply too high of a level for truly open admissions and people taking the same classes across a wide spectrum to work. It's just going to be frustrating and a waste of time and resources for a lot of people given how college courses usually operate. I think a certain minimum cut-off needs to be there for the class to function.
That being said, the proposed changes for the specialized high schools admissions process is not open admissions and while it will likely make a larger band in terms of the least knowledgable or academically performant person and the most than prior to the reform, the formula will probably still establish a real floor (unlike open admissions where the floor really just drops) and the average probably won't change all that much. The other part where it differs from college open admissions is that college is four years later--after high school which is also a period where the knowledge gap between students in a good school versus those in a bad school can really widen quite a bit.
Still though, even though this seems unlikely to be a particularly bad move if implemented, it also doesn't really show much promise and the amount of time, attention, and enmity to push through these reforms just don't seem to be worth it when there are other more clearly useful and actionable reforms.
What are the advantages of having a specialized school that you have to take a test to get into within a public school system?
Why not just grant admission based on 8th grade scores? What information does the test provide to the faculty about the student, that the grades don't? Dalton's a private school and they don't even have a grading system.
__________________
"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
Why not just grant admission based on 8th grade scores? What information does the test provide to the faculty about the student, that the grades don't? Dalton's a private school and they don't even have a grading system.
Do you mean grades? Because schools vary regarding what they mean. Receiving an A in one school can be vastly different than receiving an A at another. Schools are notorious in just giving out grades even though not deserved. CUNY had a problem with kids coming in needing to take remedial courses despite having passed with "honors" at their respective high schools.
Don't know what to say about Dalton but these specialized high schools are not magic. Ultimately, it depends on the student. If he/she is intelligent and willing to show drive & determination to learn, he/she will do well in life no matter what school that person ends up in. I know people who got accepted at these specialized schools but decided to go to a regular PS and did well in life.
But if you detest the PS that will be assigned to you based on your location, getting into these specialized high schools can be a life saver. I know a classmate of mine at Stuyvesant who was ecstatic she got accepted because she didn't want to attend the PS in her area. She lived in Far Rockaway.
What are the advantages of having a specialized school that you have to take a test to get into within a public school system?
Why not just grant admission based on 8th grade scores? What information does the test provide to the faculty about the student, that the grades don't? Dalton's a private school and they don't even have a grading system.
Grades are subjective. Standardized tests aren't. How do you compare two students who both got A's from different teachers?
But if you detest the PS that will be assigned to you based on your location, getting into these specialized high schools can be a life saver. I know a classmate of mine at Stuyvesant who was ecstatic she got accepted because she didn't want to attend the PS in her area. She lived in Far Rockaway.
Definitely a life saver. It was night and day, going to my middle school to Stuyvesant. Kids who didn't look at me funny if I (yikes! the horror!) wanted to answer a question. Fewer classes disrupted because someone wants to be class clown. Teachers actually teaching the subject, instead of giving up and handing the students coloring sheets. I learned much later that not all middle schools are like this - mine was just in a poor neigborhood, I guess. But that was later. At the moment, I was thisclose to dropping out because that's what everyone wanted, and it was starting to rub off on me.
Thing is, there are many more kids who make the cutoff than there are spots. So instead of hand-wringing about how these schools are "elitist" the city could first, make sure more kids know about the test and are given prep courses and second, allow more schools to have strong programs and high admissions standards. Give everyone that still wants to learn after 8+ years in the system a chance to do it. If that's not a good way to improve a kid's life without giving them handouts, I don't know what is.
Do you mean grades? Because schools vary regarding what they mean. Receiving an A in one school can be vastly different than receiving an A at another. Schools are notorious in just giving out grades even though not deserved. CUNY had a problem with kids coming in needing to take remedial courses despite having passed with "honors" at their respective high schools.
Don't know what to say about Dalton but these specialized high schools are not magic. Ultimately, it depends on the student. If he/she is intelligent and willing to show drive & determination to learn, he/she will do well in life no matter what school that person ends up in. I know people who got accepted at these specialized schools but decided to go to a regular PS and did well in life.
But if you detest the PS that will be assigned to you based on your location, getting into these specialized high schools can be a life saver. I know a classmate of mine at Stuyvesant who was ecstatic she got accepted because she didn't want to attend the PS in her area. She lived in Far Rockaway.
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the standardized test scores that all students take every year.
Do you mean grades? Because schools vary regarding what they mean. Receiving an A in one school can be vastly different than receiving an A at another. Schools are notorious in just giving out grades even though not deserved. CUNY had a problem with kids coming in needing to take remedial courses despite having passed with "honors" at their respective high schools.
Don't know what to say about Dalton but these specialized high schools are not magic. Ultimately, it depends on the student. If he/she is intelligent and willing to show drive & determination to learn, he/she will do well in life no matter what school that person ends up in. I know people who got accepted at these specialized schools but decided to go to a regular PS and did well in life.
But if you detest the PS that will be assigned to you based on your location, getting into these specialized high schools can be a life saver. I know a classmate of mine at Stuyvesant who was ecstatic she got accepted because she didn't want to attend the PS in her area. She lived in Far Rockaway.
That's not what I asked. I asked what is the advantage of having a school that is admissions-based on test scores in a public school system? Are there any other public school systems in the state that have specialized HS schools that grant admission based on a test? If there are any others, I am not aware.
This has nothing to do with location, so leave location out of it.
__________________
"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
Grades are subjective. Standardized tests aren't. How do you compare two students who both got A's from different teachers?
Grades are not subjective. Students don't get A's based on how the teacher feels. This proves my point even more. If you want to argue that standardized tests are beneficial, then only for math.
__________________
"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
You should have to take a test to attend the advanced classes in the school itself if anything, not admission to the entire school based on test scores only.
__________________
"The man who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed." -Martin Lawrence
Grades are not subjective. Students don't get A's based on how the teacher feels. This proves my point even more. If you want to argue that standardized tests are beneficial, then only for math.
Grades are up to the teachers and some teachers and schools can be more lenient or grade on a different curve than others. Of course it's not decoupled from ability, but there is a broader range.
That being said, a student with outstanding grades even in a school that is possibly academically less rigorous than others is still likely a student that is pretty competitive and has at least a pretty good baseline work ethic, so the proposed changes to the admission criteria doesn't seem likely to have a strong negative affect on the quality and academic achievement of the students. Entry high school coursework also doesn't generally have such a massive difference in baseline things one needs to know that the four years of high school in a good environment provided you have a harder-working student wouldn't be able to make up by senior year.
Still, specialized high schools aren't the only good public high schools in NYC and the specialized high school system is arguably still working as are the many good public high schools in NYC that take into account other factors. The problem is more that there aren't that many seats in good high schools and there are too many not so good ones. I think increasing the number of good high schools and the total number / proportion of seats in such makes a lot more sense in terms of non-lightning rod sort of thing to push as well as better middle schools and elementary schools. It's also good that over the last couple of decades there has been a lot larger geographic spread of good high schools such as Scholar's Academy in your neck of the woods which was only established in 2005 and is among the top high schools in New York state ranking higher than most NYS suburban schools including ones that are considered very good and potentially saving good students living in the area hundreds if not thousands of commute hours over the course of going to high school. The 9 specialized high schools in NYC aren't the only game in town anymore and if you look at the US News rankings, the lowest ranked specialized high school is at the 19th spot and with the top spot given to a non-specialized high school. Establishing or reforming to good public high schools is not a lightning rod topic that needs the same level of controversy and time and attention fighting for such and I think is the better, more productive use of the administration's attentions.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-27-2020 at 01:22 PM..
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