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It would have been better if the Indians had dug future tunnels for us when Paleface bought Manna-Hatta from them.
Should have stipulated that for the outrageous money they were paid. All they had to worry about were tree roots.
Plus factor in the number of stops it takes from Times Sq to Astoria Blvd, which is 10 stops, and compare that to the 7 train which has only 9 stops if you're lucky to catch the Flushing Express, but if not, then you'll have to contend with 19 stops if you take the Flushing Local. Plus the fact that the 7 train ends at Hudson Yards, but the W can travel as far as Lower Manhattan means that the W can be more utilized if the traveler is looking to going to points south of Times Sq for business or otherwise. As far as distance between the two subway stations and LGA, it looks like equal distance but the W has less stops , therefore it would be a more direct route than the 7.
If LGA were closed, then that would overload both JFK and EWR. That would be a logistical nightmare if that were to happen. LGA was never meant to be an international airport the was JFK and EWR are, but it serves the capacity in much the same way MDW does for Chicago in the fact that it's a secondary airport the way ORD is primary to Chicago in that JFK, EWR, and ORD serves int'l travelers around the world. Closing Rikers would be just as worse as well as the city isn't going to have a corrections center and the boroughs don't want to have to shoulder the burden of housing inmates nearby their neighborhoods.
Yea, the Airtrain connection at Willets Point is a bit of a head-scratcher. Airtrain connection to N/W is fine by me--I'd also be fine with an extension of that to Willets Point going Astoria to Flushing via LGA. Using this as a part of the overall transportation system and not strictly for airports would be interesting as it's similar to what Vancouver has as the backbone for its mass transit system for their region. If you were to do that, then I'd try to have a single run that also is part of the JFK Airtrain system as well as it'd be a pretty good line linking all parts of Queens provided it's integrated well with the subways.
Ideally though, if we're not talking about closing LGA entirely, I think having a S-Bahn system that combines all three rail systems together and have that running from Harold Yards down GCP to LaGuardia and beyond would be best.
If closing LGA, then I think having most of the flights absorbed by the region's five other airports would be the most sensible.
Yea, the Airtrain connection at Willets Point is a bit of a head-scratcher. Airtrain connection to N/W is fine by me--I'd also be fine with an extension of that to Willets Point going Astoria to Flushing via LGA. Using this as a part of the overall transportation system and not strictly for airports would be interesting as it's similar to what Vancouver has as the backbone for its mass transit system for their region. If you were to do that, then I'd try to have a single run that also is part of the JFK Airtrain system as well as it'd be a pretty good line linking all parts of Queens provided it's integrated well with the subways.
The reason why it's a bit of a head scratcher is because it appears that the 7 train goes further east away from LGA, then at Willets Point, there's going to be the Airtrain station and the Airtrain travels NW to LGA via the GCP. In SE Queens, there are two Airtrain lines which come from Howard Beach - JFK on the A line and Sutphin Blvd - Archer Ave and the E, J, and Z lines. The same allocation can happen with two Airtrain lines in northern Queens connecting the 7 in Willets Point and the N and W lines in Astoria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Ideally though, if we're not talking about closing LGA entirely, I think having a S-Bahn system that combines all three rail systems together and have that running from Harold Yards down GCP to LaGuardia and beyond would be best.
Closing LGA would be a nightmare in my book. Having two major airports in NYC is a blessing even though LGA is a bit antiquated considering it uses only two runways for takeoffs and landings, but that's what NYC has. Chicago has two airports (ORD and MDW) and the DC area is home to up to three airports (IAD, DCA and BWI).
LGA is a lot similar to MDW and DCA in the fact that those three airports are mainly domestic airports as well as all three of then having shorter runways than their int'l contemporaries. If Chicago can still have MDW along with ORD, and DC can have DCA with IAD and BWI an hour from DC, then NYC can still operate LGA with JFK and EWR.
Also, an S-Bahn (light rail or trolley) system will never fly in NYC. NYC is just too huge and too congested to have such a system. A city like Pittsburgh, St Louis, Buffalo, or Cincinnati can support such a system due to their sizes. NYC needs that subway system because NYC is a huge city that demands such a large, hi-capacity system with heavy duty, heavy rail subway cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
If closing LGA, then I think having most of the flights absorbed by the region's five other airports would be the most sensible.
Like I said, closing LGA would be a literal nightmare. I'd rather open up and expand Stewart international in Upstate or MacArthur Field in LI if congestion is the issue than close LGA, which is a vital link between NYC and North America, especially for business and commerce.
The reason why it's a bit of a head scratcher is because it appears that the 7 train goes further east away from LGA, then at Willets Point, there's going to be the Airtrain station and the Airtrain travels NW to LGA via the GCP. In SE Queens, there are two Airtrain lines which come from Howard Beach - JFK on the A line and Sutphin Blvd - Archer Ave and the E, J, and Z lines. The same allocation can happen with two Airtrain lines in northern Queens connecting the 7 in Willets Point and the N and W lines in Astoria.
Closing LGA would be a nightmare in my book. Having two major airports in NYC is a blessing even though LGA is a bit antiquated considering it uses only two runways for takeoffs and landings, but that's what NYC has. Chicago has two airports (ORD and MDW) and the DC area is home to up to three airports (IAD, DCA and BWI).
LGA is a lot similar to MDW and DCA in the fact that those three airports are mainly domestic airports as well as all three of then having shorter runways than their int'l contemporaries. If Chicago can still have MDW along with ORD, and DC can have DCA with IAD and BWI an hour from DC, then NYC can still operate LGA with JFK and EWR.
Also, an S-Bahn (light rail or trolley) system will never fly in NYC. NYC is just too huge and too congested to have such a system. A city like Pittsburgh, St Louis, Buffalo, or Cincinnati can support such a system due to their sizes. NYC needs that subway system because NYC is a huge city that demands such a large, hi-capacity system with heavy duty, heavy rail subway cars.
Like I said, closing LGA would be a literal nightmare. I'd rather open up and expand Stewart international in Upstate or MacArthur Field in LI if congestion is the issue than close LGA, which is a vital link between NYC and North America, especially for business and commerce.
It's a headscratcher in terms of how far out from Manhattan it is before having to go "back" to LGA. I think it may make sense if it was something where the Airtrain was more than just for an airport connection, but an actual usable transit for more than that going from Astoria to LGA to Willets Point and then through-running to Jamaica and JFK. I can get behind that if the operations and fare integration were reasonable though the way funding has traditionally worked for airport transport has meant some pretty severe restrictions on its usability for other uses which I think is short-sighted and stupid.
Closing LGA immediately would be a nightmare. That happens with closing of any major airport. However, I'm not saying close it immediately. I'm saying slowly divert more planes to other airports and improving transit to such while steadily drawing down services in LGA and then closing.
We're talking about very different S-Bahn systems. I'm talking about having interlined heavy rail commuter transit systems that are interlined in the city core to serve as rapid transit express systems that also go well outside of the core to serve as commuter rail. This kind of S-Bahn that's common in many German-speaking / Germanic language cities. These are heavy duty, higher ridership railway systems with grade separation. They are generally not trams, trolleys, or light rail. I'm talking about leveraging NJ Transit Rail, LIRR, and Metro-North services to do such instead of having them do dumb terminals in the core which are operationally very inefficient. These can also work for smaller cities, but they're stellar for large cities and it's probably the best bang for buck among many US cities with large commuter rail networks to quickly have very good transit service.
London's Crossrail line essentially converts a large part of their commuter rail system into a S-Bahn. Paris's RER (Reseau Express Regional) which is also often used as the term for francophone countries) is just that--converted commuter rail lines that do through-running in the urban core. Tokyo (a pretty large metropolis), Osaka/Kyoto/Kobe commuter rail and Taiwan's TRA lines within Taipei also essentially operate as S-Bahns. Milan's Passante project converted its commuter rail into a S-Bahn system. The larger Australian cities have these as a backbone of their systems and it's how such otherwise small systems have massive ridership. One of the worst things about MTA and transit in the US in general is how after decades of fairly low investment and construction, a lot of US operators and planners don't seem to be able to take a page from other cities in developed countries around the world and their best practices despite the much better results and bang for buck they have (even after adjusting for cost of living).
It's a headscratcher in terms of how far out from Manhattan it is before having to go "back" to LGA. I think it may make sense if it was something where the Airtrain was more than just for an airport connection, but an actual usable transit for more than that going from Astoria to LGA to Willets Point and then through-running to Jamaica and JFK. I can get behind that if the operations and fare integration were reasonable though the way funding has traditionally worked for airport transport has meant some pretty severe restrictions on its usability for other uses which I think is short-sighted and stupid.
The purpose of the Airtrains for JFK, LGA, and EWR is for a direct connection to those airports, not to serve to local communities. In the past during the 80's and 90's, there was no Airtrain and cities like DC, Philadelphia, , Boston, Chicago, and even Cleveland (which was the first city to have a major rapid transit line connecting to a major airport) had direct connections to a major airport, and while NYC did have the old JFK line from 57th St/6th Ave to Howard Beach/JFK, the connection was through a shuttle bus.
The MTA decided to connect JFK to the A-Train around 2003 and I remember grumbling with a few wow straphanger about how it was free to take the bus in comparison to the price of $6 to JFK and he agreed with me even though our wishful thinkings couldn't stop what was to be the inevitable. The Airtrain is meant for airline passengers who seek to use rail transit to make a direct connection to those airports as opposed to serving the local communities and if that was the case, then another rail line should be constructed to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Closing LGA immediately would be a nightmare. That happens with closing of any major airport. However, I'm not saying close it immediately. I'm saying slowly divert more planes to other airports and improving transit to such while steadily drawing down services in LGA and then closing.
With such a busy city as NYC and practically the busiest, closing LGA would be highly impractical, and since JFK handles mainly the int'l flight, and EWR handles both domestic and int'l, LGA is a major link to NYC from domestic points the way Midway serves Chicago and DCA serves DC. Until I hear of Chicago and DC wanting to close Midway and DCA, LGA will never close. And if the city plans on closing LGA, what are you going to replace LGA with, a park?
I'd rather keep LGA as our main domestic airport and improving on the design and runways than closing it and causing more air traffic to build up in JFK and EWR!
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
We're talking about very different S-Bahn systems. I'm talking about having interlined heavy rail commuter transit systems that are interlined in the city core to serve as rapid transit express systems that also go well outside of the core to serve as commuter rail. This kind of S-Bahn that's common in many German-speaking / Germanic language cities. These are heavy duty, higher ridership railway systems with grade separation. They are generally not trams, trolleys, or light rail. I'm talking about leveraging NJ Transit Rail, LIRR, and Metro-North services to do such instead of having them do dumb terminals in the core which are operationally very inefficient. These can also work for smaller cities, but they're stellar for large cities and it's probably the best bang for buck among many US cities with large commuter rail networks to quickly have very good transit service.
London's Crossrail line essentially converts a large part of their commuter rail system into a S-Bahn. Paris's RER (Reseau Express Regional) which is also often used as the term for francophone countries) is just that--converted commuter rail lines that do through-running in the urban core. Tokyo (a pretty large metropolis), Osaka/Kyoto/Kobe commuter rail and Taiwan's TRA lines within Taipei also essentially operate as S-Bahns. Milan's Passante project converted its commuter rail into a S-Bahn system. The larger Australian cities have these as a backbone of their systems and it's how such otherwise small systems have massive ridership. One of the worst things about MTA and transit in the US in general is how after decades of fairly low investment and construction, a lot of US operators and planners don't seem to be able to take a page from other cities in developed countries around the world and their best practices despite the much better results and bang for buck they have (even after adjusting for cost of living).
The closest I can think of that can be what you're talking about would have to be the Interborough Express ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAYRZT9LguA). It's a nice line and it can work in NYC but the only issue is that would it be heavily used in comparison to other lines? The G line is the least used line simply because it doesn't go into Manhattan, and with the Second Ave line costing over $12 B, while it would be ideal to create and construct such a line, the costs of building such a line, especially one which may not be as heavily used as the G train, may fall right back to the rank and file. I'd rather extend the 3 train to Spring Creek and the F train to Belmont Park than to create a brand new line at this point.
What makes most sense is what a lot of cities in developed countries around the world have done which is to basically use their commuter rail services like RER/S-Bahn services where they operate essentially as somewhat like express trains on steroids and run through the urban core covering large distances between stops and with a line passing through or a spur that goes to the airports. This is what should be done with pretty much all three airports and with all three commuter rail lines running interlined, through-running services.
It took almost a century to get 4 stops! How long will it take, to finish the rest....?
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