Another Day, Another Boondoggle -4 New Metro-North Stations Break Ground in NYC. Here's When They'll Take You to Penn (New York: purchase, construction)

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

How is you having bad math defending MTA? I have a lot of criticisms of the MTA, but I also have a lot of criticisms of fellow posters who sometimes seem to have no way to distinguish between what are and are not reasonable actions for the MTA to take.

I give up. Why is it necessary to build four gold-plated stations in the Bronx, rather than start running a few trains a day, literally tomorrow or when Penn Station space is freed up by East Side Access? That is the substance and yet you are busting chops on math.

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by dfc99

The new Bronx stations are aimed partly at reverse commuters, which makes some sense. But do we even know how many reverse commuters there are now and how many of those are doing WFH like everyone else?


At least one of the proposed stations in the Bronx is near a few large hospitals with many employees who come in from the suburbs. Sort of a captive group that can't WFH in most cases. But what makes the MTA think these employees who work all different hours are going to give up driving in favor of taking MNRR to the Bronx? Just so they can wait on a desolate Bronx train platform at 3am?

Yea, that's one of the Bronx stations I think should be kept as the three stations clumped there are awfully close to each other. Additionally, rail north and south of that station are bends where the train has to slow down anyways. Aside from the hospital, there's also the university integrated into it as a teaching hospital. I think it makes sense to carrot the other two communities that would have had access to their own stations to instead get frequent select bus service that includes making it to that station.

The other one is the Hunts Point one for a transfer to the 6 train, bus transfers and the Hunts Point market area.

Really though, I think this is more for visit and commutes to Hudson Yards and Long Island City whether from the Bronx or elsewhere. They haven't even mentioned the service patterns and likely won't until much later.

[Mightyqueen801]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Why the need to build four new Bronx stations for an untold delay and cost of billions to bring Metro North trains into Penn when the same tracks could do it, literally tomorrow, the same way that AMTRAK does every day right now? See excerpt of article below (link):

It seems that politicians slobber over massive construction projects. This is not necessary. AMTRAK trains run every day over the Hellgate access system. The addition of the four Bronx stations appears to be a driver. They will provide enticing opportunities to waste taxpayer money. I assume that is why they don't start running Metro North trains right now, or at least as soon as, or if, the LIRR East Side Access takes some stress off Penn Station, see Why Isn't East Side Access Running? I need to be cynical on these questions, and how much $3.18 billion proposed for Metro-North Penn Station Access project will multiply.

The East Side access has ballooned from a promised $4.3 billion to $11.2 billion. By my math that's a 400% overrun, making the quoted article generous to the MTA. Excerpt, link:



Why, oh why can't we believe in our officials?

I can't answer your last question , but it's curious that you are asking questions already explained on the project website:

This project will connect Amtrak’s existing Hell Gate Line to Penn Station and bring the line into a state of good repair. This will improve reliability and on-time performance and prepare the line for future high-speed rail.

Project benefits
Four new ADA-accessible stations at Hunts Point, Morris Park, Co-op City, and Parkchester/Van Nest
A one-seat ride between Penn Station and the East Bronx, Westchester, and Connecticut

Shorter travel times — some passengers may save as much as 75 minutes

A second Metro-North route into Manhattan and another terminal for the railroad

19 miles of new and rehabilitated track along Amtrak’s Hell Gate Line, which will improve reliability and on-time service for Amtrak customers

Less traffic and air pollution

https://new.mta.info/project/penn-station-access

Note that Amtrak and the MTA are applying together for federal funding.

This is not something that just popped up yesterday. I remember going to a presentation on the project back in 2018 or 2019 before the procurement had even started.

You don't have to like the project, but I think you're also demonstrating that you know very little about what the whole thing will entail.

Your question about the costs and how much they will really end up to be is fair. By now you do know that politicians are always going to sell the public the project at a lower estimated cost than it will really be. As a person who worked forever in that environment, I know very well that costs are often due to delays from political types making changes to projects and schedules for their own political agenda timing.

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

I give up. Why is it necessary to build four gold-plated stations in the Bronx, rather than start running a few trains a day, literally tomorrow or when Penn Station space is freed up by East Side Access? That is the substance and yet you are busting chops on math.

Dude, I just pointed out that your math was off and you had a pretty funny response in comparison as if you were haggling with math. It's not that serious. It's funny in that it's pretty easy elementary school material that you're getting wrong *repeatedly*, it's funny in that no one asked you to redo someone else's correct math in the first place and overcorrect *by your math* as you put it and the funniest part by far is your response was to try to haggle out a compromise solution somehow to a really simple math problem. I don't see how that relates to defending the MTA which certainly has a lot of problems both internal to itself which are many and with problems outside of its control or defending NYC transport systems. It's just really funny by itself to me.

I said what I felt about the Bronx stations. I said it's a very different kind of project from Grand Central Madison (which I very graciously explained to you how terminal berths work and why they suck) though that does not mean there won't be overrruns and delays. I said I think it should have two stations in the Bronx and I specified which two and why. I also said that there should be one in Astoria especially if the Triboro RX/IBX/insert new name is to happen, and one in the Sunnyside Yards area. I didn't say anything about gold-plating the stations and I would most certainly be against spending extravagant amounts of money on gold-plating the stations. I also have no qualms about running MNR trains to Penn Station before infill stations in the Bronx are built. I think that's pretty likely to happen and there's been no indication otherwise. I'd actually go one further and see there be sets where the MNR and a corresponding NJT shorter run route actually gets signed as both and runs as one service.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

I can't answer your last question , but it's curious that you are asking questions already explained on the project website:

Given the "track record" (pun intended), how much credence do you put in the MTA website? I put almost none.

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

I said what I felt about the Bronx stations. I said it's a very different kind of project from Grand Central Madison (which I very graciously explained to you how terminal berths work and why they suck) though that does not mean there won't be overrruns and delays.

You did explain. I will re-read it further to make sure I grasp the explanation, may even show it to my engineer son.

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

I said I think it should have two stations in the Bronx and I specified which two and why. I also said that there should be one in Astoria especially if the Triboro RX/IBX/insert new name is to happen, and one in the Sunnyside Yards area. I didn't say anything about gold-plating the stations and I would most certainly be against spending extravagant amounts of money on gold-plating the stations.

I seriously expect the stations to be extravagant. Even in my neck of the woods, sin White Plains where I work, millions, not billions was spent on "upgrading" the White Plains station and frankly I see little to show for it except a new pair of escalators and a handicap access elevator. It looks like it was silver if not gold-plated. A simple train station would do.

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

I also have no qualms about running MNR trains to Penn Station before infill stations in the Bronx are built. I think that's pretty likely to happen and there's been no indication otherwise. I'd actually go one further and see there be sets where the MNR and a corresponding NJT shorter run route actually gets signed as both and runs as one service.

The "indication otherwise" is that no one has suggested almost immediate service. I do agree with your suggestion on the MNR/NJT route. I think many politicians rightly think that if they allow Penn Station service before "infill" service is possible will worry that there will be no political will to ̶w̶a̶s̶t̶e̶ ̶spend billions. I also agree with DFC on this:

Originally Posted by dfc99

But what makes the MTA think these employees who work all different hours are going to give up driving in favor of taking MNRR to the Bronx? Just so they can wait on a desolate Bronx train platform at 3am?

[Mightyqueen801]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Given the "track record" (pun intended), how much credence do you put in the MTA website? I put almost none.

<snipped>

Well, you have to read things with a critical eye as to what is factual and what is a claim that may or may not pan out to be true.

This project will connect Amtrak’s existing Hell Gate Line to Penn Station and bring the line into a state of good repair. This will improve reliability and on-time performance and prepare the line for future high-speed rail.

The first sentence is factual. It's what will be done. It's what the contract documents will require the designers and contractors to create.

The second is what they /claim hope this work will accomplish and what they want the public to believe this will accomplish.

Project benefits
Four new ADA-accessible stations at Hunts Point, Morris Park, Co-op City, and Parkchester/Van Nest
A one-seat ride between Penn Station and the East Bronx, Westchester, and Connecticut

Shorter travel times — some passengers may save as much as 75 minutes

A second Metro-North route into Manhattan and another terminal for the railroad

19 miles of new and rehabilitated track along Amtrak’s Hell Gate Line, which will improve reliability and on-time service for Amtrak customers

Less traffic and air pollution

Similarly--YES, um, they ARE going to build 4 new ADA compliant stations. Yes, there will be 19 miles of new and rehabilitated track. You kind of have to accept the physical infrastrcture to be built at face value. Do you somehow think they will try to trick the public and only build three without anyone noticing or something? That's factual. Will it create a one-seat ride for some? Yup, we kinda have to take that at face value, too.

Will there be less traffic and air pollution and an improvement in reliability and on-time performance for Amtrak customers? Well, those claims are not quite as tangible as "4 new ADA-compliant stations", but are selling points that the project planners hope will come out of this and more importantly, that the politicians hope the public will believe will happen.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

Well, you have to read things with a critical eye as to what is factual and what is a claim that may or may not pan out to be true.

This project will connect Amtrak’s existing Hell Gate Line to Penn Station and bring the line into a state of good repair. This will improve reliability and on-time performance and prepare the line for future high-speed rail.

The first sentence is factual. It's what will be done. It's what the contract documents will require the designers and contractors to create.

The second is what they /claim hope this work will accomplish and what they want the public to believe this will accomplish.

I have ridden the Hellgate Line a number of times, when I travel from New Rochelle to Washington DC. There seems to be no reliability problem. This seems to me to be an excuse not to start service immediately and at low cost. In other words, another chance to have a gargantuan boondoggle.

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

Project benefits
Four new ADA-accessible stations at Hunts Point, Morris Park, Co-op City, and Parkchester/Van Nest
A one-seat ride between Penn Station and the East Bronx, Westchester, and Connecticut

Shorter travel times — some passengers may save as much as 75 minutes

A second Metro-North route into Manhattan and another terminal for the railroad

19 miles of new and rehabilitated track along Amtrak’s Hell Gate Line, which will improve reliability and on-time service for Amtrak customers

Less traffic and air pollution

Similarly--YES, um, they ARE going to build 4 new ADA compliant stations. Yes, there will be 19 miles of new and rehabilitated track. You kind of have to accept the physical infrastrcture to be built at face value. Do you somehow think they will try to trick the public and only build three without anyone noticing or something? That's factual. Will it create a one-seat ride for some? Yup, we kinda have to take that at face value, too.

Will there be less traffic and air pollution and an improvement in reliability and on-time performance for Amtrak customers? Well, those claims are not quite as tangible as "4 new ADA-compliant stations", but are selling points that the project planners hope will come out of this and more importantly, that the politicians hope the public will believe will happen.

My question is whether four new stations, or for that matter three, are warranted. Perhaps, maybe, one, with surface transit to that station. I believe they fear that if they start running MNR service right now over the Hellgate line to Penn Station there will be no appetite to spend billions.

[dfc99]

...A one-seat ride between Penn Station and the East Bronx, Westchester, and Connecticut...

I'm sure full-fare paying Connecticut commuters are just going to love the idea of Bronx commuters paying the heavily-discounted 'city fare' for riding the same equipment.

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by dfc99

I'm sure full-fare paying Connecticut commuters are just going to love the idea of Bronx commuters paying the heavily-discounted 'city fare' for riding the same equipment.

This already exists on the Harlem line and for LIRR. It's been pretty good so far and for the most part the communities with stops are working to middle class with the exception of the Hunts Point stop though who knows what that'll be like by the time the stop actually opens. I think there's something that's pretty common among old New Yorkers from outside of the Bronx who simply think the entirety of the Bronx is a mess or that there aren't working people there which is kind of stupid given how large and populous the Bronx is.

It's also not like there aren't benefits to CT riders though this is something that will need to be negotiated with CDOT for service patterns when the stations are up *and* for running additional services to Penn Station prior to these stations being in place. CT riders get a one-seat to Penn Station at MNR rates rather than Amtrak rates and the opening up of what's essentially additional terminal capacity means that there can be more trains ran in general.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by dfc99

I'm sure full-fare paying Connecticut commuters are just going to love the idea of Bronx commuters paying the heavily-discounted 'city fare' for riding the same equipment.

The pricing on MNR has always been by zone, which puts Westchester and then Connecticut at an escalating disadvantage. This is not new. What is new is the expenditure of billions on what appears to be a typical boondoggle.