Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Interestingly, the Rockaway line on the map did exist, but not with the MTA, I think it was some other railroad that went bankrupt and the MTA bought it and opened it in 1956 or so.
That bankruptcy happened way before the reason behind the TA buying the tracks. That bankrupt railroad eventually became a separate company under the LIRR and they finally merged into them. LIRR abandoned the tracks because of a fire on the trestle. Later on the TA bought it for their revenue service.
I think a lot of the subway lines were built essentially going to nowheresville. They may have been built on a theory of if you build the lines,the development will follow.
There can't have been too many people living in the North and East Bronx back then either.
Your right, that was the case many times for example, look at the (IRT) 1 train at 207st, back in 1906 when it was first opened, there was positively nothing there, of course we know eventually Inwood was to become the second most dense nabe, but they pretty much built the 1 literally to nowhere, then developement sprang up around the train.Showing Image 46073
Part of the problem with building on Staten Island is that all the lines there would have to be built above ground, and if you wanted to connect the Staten Island to the rest of the city, it would HAVE to be on bridge because the land in the area would not be able to support a tunnel. Plus the water around Staten Island is really deep, which is why the Verrazzano was such a problem when it was being constructed. You wouldn't be able to connect it to Manhattan, it would have to be via Brooklyn because they're no way your going to build under the harbor or put a bridge in the middle of it.
Basically, the only way that a train system would work in Staten Island if it was run by the Port Authority, not the MTA and connected to New Jersey instead of the city. Its why existing industrial rail tracks go to New Jersey. Even then it would be an inneffective form of public transportation, since the rail system would have to round about through the industrial sections of New Jersey in order to merge into the path/amtrak tunnels to get into the city.
That or two lans of the lower level on the verrazzano was reconstituted for subway traffic. Probably an extension of the R train acting as a Staten Island express with a new Staten Island local line.
Actually, looking at the Staten Island railway map, it seems much of it was built following my ideas. If need be the R train could be extended from Bay Ridge in Brooklyn, and merge into the present Long Island Railroad at grassmere probably with a stop between Grassmere and Bay Ridge before crossing the Verrazzano. The stops headed towards the ferry could be run by a shuttle line or by the current Staten Island Railroad under a different tile (say the Y train)
I was told that Staten Island didn't have a subway from the other boroughs because Richmond County did not want easy access from many of the residents from the other Boroughs. Obviously the residents that live there are hurt by no connecting subway but I assumed that since many SI'ers are formerly from Brooklyn(White Flight, etc), they didn't want Staten Island turning into another Brooklyn back in the day. I'm sure that its a combination of factors(environmental, racial, bad 70s fiscal problems, etc) why a subway wasn't built.
I was told that Staten Island didn't have a subway from the other boroughs because Richmond County did not want easy access from many of the residents from the other Boroughs. Obviously the residents that live there are hurt by no connecting subway but I assumed that since many SI'ers are formerly from Brooklyn(White Flight, etc), they didn't want Staten Island turning into another Brooklyn back in the day. I'm sure that its a combination of factors(environmental, racial, bad 70s fiscal problems, etc) why a subway wasn't built.
Not true STATEN ISLAND EXPECTS A BOOM; Proposed Subway Under Narrows Has Stimul... - Article Preview - The New York Times
There was a huge housing spur on Staten Island when people started talking about making a subway connecting the island to the rest of the island. It probably didn't happen because 2 years later you have World War 1, and then after that the great depression. The plans we have here for the tunnel stem from the 1920s, but after that, you have Robert Moses in charge of city planning for NYC, and he greatly favored cars over mass transit (so much so that he was going to tear up Manhattan and build highways) and his building of the Verrazzano was the deathblow to a inter-borough subway connection to Staten Island.
The power of Robert Moses took away much of the vision of those remaining lines.
There's a professor at NYU named Dick Netzer. He opposes the Second Avenue Subway, and proposes a Second Avenue Light Rail as an alternative. Given this economy, THAT is a great alternative.
And speaking of light rail, one would be perfect for Throggs Neck, Bronx, up and down E. Tremont Av, from the end of the neighborhood to Westchester Square! A light rail would also be good for Flatbush Av, from the Junction to Kings Plaza in Brooklyn, as well as Archer Av, from Sutphin Blvd to the eastern tip of Queens.
Not true STATEN ISLAND EXPECTS A BOOM; Proposed Subway Under Narrows Has Stimul... - Article Preview - The New York Times
There was a huge housing spur on Staten Island when people started talking about making a subway connecting the island to the rest of the island. It probably didn't happen because 2 years later you have World War 1, and then after that the great depression. The plans we have here for the tunnel stem from the 1920s, but after that, you have Robert Moses in charge of city planning for NYC, and he greatly favored cars over mass transit (so much so that he was going to tear up Manhattan and build highways) and his building of the Verrazzano was the deathblow to a inter-borough subway connection to Staten Island.
That article is from 1912! Incredible. It's not very often that 100 years makes a construction/engineering project seem impossible or financially implausible. But welcome to "Human Excrement" York!
Last edited by Jackson Pollock; 06-09-2009 at 02:53 PM..
Reason: Inappropriate language
Part of the problem with building on Staten Island is that all the lines there would have to be built above ground, and if you wanted to connect the Staten Island to the rest of the city, it would HAVE to be on bridge because the land in the area would not be able to support a tunnel. Plus the water around Staten Island is really deep, which is why the Verrazzano was such a problem when it was being constructed. You wouldn't be able to connect it to Manhattan, it would have to be via Brooklyn because they're no way your going to build under the harbor or put a bridge in the middle of it.
Basically, the only way that a train system would work in Staten Island if it was run by the Port Authority, not the MTA and connected to New Jersey instead of the city. Its why existing industrial rail tracks go to New Jersey. Even then it would be an inneffective form of public transportation, since the rail system would have to round about through the industrial sections of New Jersey in order to merge into the path/amtrak tunnels to get into the city.
That or two lans of the lower level on the verrazzano was reconstituted for subway traffic. Probably an extension of the R train acting as a Staten Island express with a new Staten Island local line.
Actually, looking at the Staten Island railway map, it seems much of it was built following my ideas. If need be the R train could be extended from Bay Ridge in Brooklyn, and merge into the present Long Island Railroad at grassmere probably with a stop between Grassmere and Bay Ridge before crossing the Verrazzano. The stops headed towards the ferry could be run by a shuttle line or by the current Staten Island Railroad under a different tile (say the Y train)
I've heard that in the medium-term future, the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail will be extended from Bayonne to link up to Staten Island's rail. I don't know if it'd shorten the commute to Midtown, but it would give people on Staten Island easy access to Downtown Jersey City and the path trains located there. The thing that is holding up this project is the decision of what to do with the Bayonne Bridge-its beautiful but it needs to either be retro-fitted so large ships can pass underneath at high tide or be replaced.
I linked a map below, in case some of you aren't aware of the light rail. You can see that a link to SI is extremely logical. HBLR also provides support for the Triboro RX, imo. It's ridership has exceeded expectations and continues to grow as time passes.
Your right, that was the case many times for example, look at the (IRT) 1 train at 207st, back in 1906 when it was first opened, there was positively nothing there, of course we know eventually Inwood was to become the second most dense nabe, but they pretty much built the 1 literally to nowhere, then developement sprang up around the train.Showing Image 46073
The V-N was actually constructed (I could be wrong about this, but I believe I read it in "The Power Broker") to be capable of holding an additional deck for the subway. Effective public transit on SI would, I think, look something like this:
Extend the R train over the bridge, linking to the SIR at Grasmere. This would probably only be effective if there were an express R to the city, however.
Rehabilitate the North Shore Railroad. There was, until 1953, a rail line along Richmond Terrace from the ferry terminal to Arlington. There have been periodic plans to rehabilitate it since then - it would not be very difficult to do, as all of the right-of-way is still there. This is, as it should be, the borough's number on transit priority, and it should also be a top-five transit priority for the city. It would provide rail access for tens of thousand of people on the North Shore who live too far from SIR stations, and help to rehabilitate the dilapidated waterfront along Richmond Terrace. This is something that should have been done years ago, frankly.
The final link would be extending the Hudson-Bergen light rail across the Bayonne Bridge, down the median of the MLK Expy., and then down Richmond Avenue. This would provide a rail link for the middle of the island.
The SIR itself is actually fairly well-maintained and reliable. The key problems with it are a) it does not serve enough of the island's population, and b) outside rush hour, it only runs every half-hour. Greater connectivity would probably mean greater ridership for the SIR, and all routes, and more frequent service, leading to...greater ridership. A virtuous cycle, that.
I think the political will to do something about SI's abysmal public transit is building. Staten Islanders are slowly coming to the realization that this is a necessity, and the the borough's future will look more and more like the rest of NYC.
(I'm a native Staten Islander and passionate about this stuff, so when it comes up...yeah, I tend to rant)
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
