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He told us frankly that the building didn't rent to black people. It was a great really cheap apartment and it pissed me off that we couldn't stay for this reason but that's life. I would like for these things not to affect my kids but that seems doubtful.
Yodel, that's a horrible story. It's also illegal. You could have threatened to sue and stayed!
I wouldn't want to live around people who saw your "not white" kids any differently, though. So good riddance if you run into any more of these types.
I'm sure most people of your landlord's ethnicity would also not want to live around people like him, shared race or no. The vast majority of people want your family as neighbors, not people like that!
Yodel, that's a horrible story. It's also illegal. You could have threatened to sue and stayed!
We made some inquiries at the time, but were told that since we had no proof, we didn't have much chance. My roomate's mother was from Germany. She was so sweet until she became drunk and then she would stand in front of our door and yell obsenities at her son, and sometimes me. The stuff directed at me related to my husband, that n.... as she referred to him when she was drunk. But the next day she wouldn't remember a thing and would be back to being the sweet little old lady. Its probably better that we didn't stay, because one can only put up with that kind of thing for so long.
By the way other than that, being an interracial couple has been no big deal at all for us in NY.
We made some inquiries at the time, but were told that since we had no proof, we didn't have much chance. My roomate's mother was from Germany. She was so sweet until she became drunk and then she would stand in front of our door and yell obsenities at her son, and sometimes me. The stuff directed at me related to my husband, that n.... as she referred to him when she was drunk. But the next day she wouldn't remember a thing and would be back to being the sweet little old lady. Its probably better that we didn't stay, because one can only put up with that kind of thing for so long.
By the way other than that, being an interracial couple has been no big deal at all for us in NY.
Horrible, horrible. Even if she weren't racist, that'd still be a terrible situation, so good riddance.
It happens that I was just reading 'Tis, Frank McCourt's follow-up to Angela's Ashes. He included anecdotes showing how racist and sexist Americans could be at that time (even he was no exception to the latter!), and your story sounds just like the ones he included about NYC. The book was hard to read at times because of that, so it's strange to think of NYC being like that at ALL, EVER in modern times! At least it's the exception and not the rule...
The term subculture almost always has a negative connotation. Many groups fight that label before they are forced more or less underground. It does not make life easy. I would not define a liberal progressive in NY as part of any subculture. The same with a music fan or a new age type person. I don't think most people would. People who define themselves as progressive in NY do tend to be from a certain group/class. I did not create the connotation that comes with this word. It was always there and money plays a huge part. If you have it- you are much less likely to be slapped with that label.
Think about the organized groups(deemed political) in NY that are considered a threat. What race/economic class do they belong to? This is no coincidence. Maybe it is different where you are. People like you are describing do end up isolating in a large city. Idealism doesn't jibe with economic extremes any more than conservatism does. My point was that in NYC you see examples of both of these groups segregating themselves. When reality hits -idealism wanes and life becomes about something else. A place of economic extremes is not a good home for an idealist.
Queens is pretty diverse. From the Dominicans in Corona. Mexicans in East Elmhurst. To the African Americans in Jamaica. Lots of different groups.
However racism, you will always find it everywhere. Especially where a lot of groups are packed in nearby. It's natural to self segregate, to live among those like you. However some people have misconceptions about other groups.
Well if you're any indication, I'll bet people in NYC use "subculture" pejoratively because Manhattan is filled with classist assh*les, but I assure you that in general, it is not used that way.
"Forced" underground? Most subcultures (e.g., creative movements) start "underground" and gradually gain more and more subscribers until it culminates in mainstream appeal. Take a survey of how many 8th graders are vegetarian now compared to 10 years ago. The vegan-hippie subculture has gone mainstream! Ten years ago it wasn't "underground," not because of some racial/economic reason, but because it wasn't started 10 years ago. There's been a consistently growing community for a very long time. "Underground" doesn't have negative connotations, as you seem to think also. Well, maybe classists in Manhattan automatically sneer at any lifestyle that doesn't involve wasting thousands of dollars on gaudy designer labels, but they alone don't define word usage because of their visceral reactions to the word "subculture" or The Others.
"Forced" underground? Most subcultures (e.g., creative movements) start "underground" and gradually gain more and more subscribers until it culminates in mainstream appeal. Take a survey of how many 8th graders are vegetarian now compared to 10 years ago. The vegan-hippie subculture has gone mainstream! Ten years ago it wasn't "underground," not because of some racial/economic reason, but because it wasn't started 10 years ago. There's been a consistently growing community for a very long time. "Underground" doesn't have negative connotations, as you seem to think also. Well, maybe classists in Manhattan automatically sneer at any lifestyle that doesn't involve wasting thousands of dollars on gaudy designer labels, but they alone don't define word usage because of their visceral reactions to the word "subculture" or The Others.
Subculture refers to a group of persons in the mainstream who move underground. Usually not by choice. That has always been true. You are talking about something else. "Underground" is great sometimes but it is not always a choice. If things work out underground than people tend to forget about the fact that the group in question was ever maligned. In any case that is a different thing! Most people in NY are not concerend with their neighbor's taste in music, cuisine, or fashion.
You are describing a smaller community-maybe a small city or town. Def not NYC. The issues you are debating make more sense if discussing a university town or a city in Oregon. Maybe Burlington VT or somewhere in Minnesota. Why? Because those places do not have lots of extremes in them. Someone seeking an environment where money does not rule would have to avoid large cities in general. The more poverty in an area the less utopian it will feel. No matter how hard you work at finding others with your values. It is tempting to say people just have a mental problem in NY but you have to walk in someone's shoes. All groups may seem like they want to keep to themselves these days but some people have very limited choices.
Subculture refers to a group of persons in the mainstream who move underground. Usually not by choice.
No.
"sub·cul·ture (sŭb'kŭl'chər) pronunciation
n.
1. A cultural subgroup differentiated by status, ethnic background, residence, religion, or other factors that functionally unify the group and act collectively on each member."
It's your "tribe," whether or not its members ostracized for merely being minorities or for any unifying beliefs themselves.
Wiki definition:
"A subculture is a set of people with a set of behaviors and beliefs, which could be distinct or hidden, that differentiate them from the larger culture to which they belong.
Subcultures can be distinctive because of the age, race, ethnicity, class, and/or gender. The qualities that determine a subculture as distinct may be aesthetic, religious, political, sexual, or a combination of these factors."
If a subculture was "forced underground," you're right, it wouldn't have been their choice (e.g., homophobia forcing gays to socialize in covert ways they would not have otherwise chosen), but that is not a sufficient or necessary condition of defining a subculture. Nor is it true in the majority of cases. What is common to them is that they hold a value or lifestyle that is not generally represented by the mainstream, but it is not always necessarily a counterculture due to discrimination. I see why we are disagreeing now though--it's absolutely more true of NYC where many people are classist and view people primarily on economic terms before anything else. When I responded, it was to debate the idea that it's wrong to bring up race at all on city-data. NYC is absolutely segregated, and progressives unfortunately aren't the "progressive-types" I had referred to. I'll bring up Conan's observation again. So did the social experiment fail?
That has always been true. You are talking about something else. "Underground" is great sometimes but it is not always a choice. If things work out underground than people tend to forget about the fact that the group in question was ever maligned.
OK, so now you're actually agreeing with me; it's not always a choice if the group in question is forced to maintain community relations in a progressively covert manner due to public backlash. A group identifying with a subculture may not have informally founded a movement had they not been lumped together and ostracized for any number of reasons (e.g., racism), but that context or any preceding factors are not necessary for defining a subculture. The fact that some subcultures are extreme countercultures could cause a marginalized group to be ostracized further, yes. The fact that by definition a subculture is rejecting some aspect of the norm does not mean they were "forced underground" discriminatorily, thus making "subculture" inherently pejorative.
Again, I think we're just disagreeing semantically because it's more often imbued with that meaning because of what Manhattan is like! That's why we were talking past each other.
If you think of NY as an experiment than the US in general is an experiment too, yes? I do not think of Manhattan as New York and I am not referring to Manhattan specifically in my posts. Manhattan is just one section of the city as far as I am concerned. I do not agree with the wikipedia def of subculture but I don't know anyone who uses that term the way you use it so not too much else to say on that. Everyone is not born with the same array of options. If that were true everyone would be grouped by choice into individual whatever sort of term you wish to use. I called it a comfort zone but you can call it a subset or a subculture if you so desire.
I did not object to the idea of someone bringing up race on here at all. I objected to the fact that they were not specific in their post. They obviously wanted to know more than just the ethnic/racial makeup of the area but did not bother to state what that meant.
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