The Adirondacks vs. Vermont (New York, Plattsburgh: transplants, motels, vacation home)

[boomvang]

I could not disagree more with Trustys assessment of Saranac Lake. My wife and I found it to be about as friendly a town as you would find. Did not check out the bars, as this is not a big part of our lives, but walking around the town and residential areas was a very nice experience. The town is a little funky and we ultimately decided to move to a more accessible area south of Syracuse, but sometimes I am sorry we did not try Saranac Lake. Vermont is a wonderful place also, but the natives can be a little slow in accepting "flatlanders". We wanted to feel welcomed, and I am happy to say that we feel that we made the correct choice.

[JiminCT]

Diverse? VT is still one of the whitest states in the union! If you think diversity is
ex-suburban white people from Fairfield County, Long Giland, Westchester Co., Natick, and West Hartford...yes that may be true.

Burlington's economy may be better, but a lot of this is tourism and big box retail ...both of which pay very little. The average wage in VT is the lowest out of the 6 New England States. The high real estate prices are from an artifically low inventory and a lot of people from the flatlands bringing their money up and paying through the nose. The economy is a very dangerous dichtomy...low wages and high real estate prices.

The Adirondack life can be quite hardscrabble in a lot of places. Placid is on the rebound..but a lot of that is tourism and real estate as well. I dont think the diversity is the issue...its more wealth. VT has more of it....but a lot of that is imported.

[trusty]

Originally Posted by JiminCT

Diverse? VT is still one of the whitest states in the union! If you think diversity is
ex-suburban white people ...

VT has more of it....but a lot of that is imported.

Diversity is not just a white vs. non-whites.

There is conservative vs. liberal etc, and gay vs. straight, and the latter is a big deal for us in terms of feeling comfortable... and safe. However, if whiteness is the determining factor for your diversity-meter, then upstate NY certainly ties with VT - we did not see a non-white person in the first 2 days we were in the Adies.

I also found Lake Placid very wealthy. The money factor was clear. Then a few blocks from the main action, you fall off a cliff, with rusting buildings and a very old olympic center in need of a major upgrade.

As for "imported" wealth - much of NYC is imported wealth. It often doesn't matter where econ. stability comes from in terms of the actual stability it creates, such as investments and money that floats around to support the people that live there.

I live in Brooklyn and am not exactly delighted that a lot of rich people move here from all over the nation and the world and buy up housing, drive up costs, shop and leave... on the other hand, rich people who do hang around here, either for 3 weeks or year round, are the folks who buy art, goods, services and make it possible for people like me to make a living - just for example. The activity level is elevated, the city is alive and thriving, more than say, a mining town in southern Ohio, where I moved from.

And VT it is not all imported wealth. VT has created numerous industries that upstate NY simply does not have; they have been able to brand itself with endless products such as Green Mountain Coffee, VT teddy bear, Ben and Jerry's, Lake Champlain chocolates, Cabot, etc. It's such a tiny state and it has so many companies. Perhaps VT has also not been hard by depressions in decades past.

[clynnog]

Originally Posted by trusty

My own impression on 'rednecks', is that upstate NY has many, many more. It also has a conservative and even depressed vibe. When one drives through many Adie laketowns, there are many boarded up, closed buildings and it is just plain depressing.

We were just in Saranac, and a few of the pizza places and bars were too scary to go near. Big, huge, [i.e., obese] men with sleeveless ripped shirts and crew cuts, etc. Everyone chain-smoked. Lots of drunk, loud people. Most 'downtowns' also looked dead.

Can't agree more. I was camping btwn LP and Saranac Lake in the summer of 1991 and my friend and I went into Saranac for dinner and go to some bars etc. As we approched a bar, literally the doors flew open and a brawl with about 10 guys started. Nobody seemed to stop them and we decided to head to LP to some pubs.

The Paul Smith's Inn is a bit of a let down as well.

[averagenyjoe]

I never quite understand why someone would make a judgment on any town based largely on how hot the bar scene is. I noticed on this and other threads that the bar scene is highly mentioned as an indicator of quality of life. I used to enjoy going out for a tad bit of night life in earlier years so I'm not totally out of the loop for this desire. I think though that if Saranac Lake has that kind of depressing and rough activities I would consider staying away from the place as a home. However, since I have not looked at a place through those glasses, I have not noticed that sort of activity in Saranac Lake of which I have visited a few times over the recent years. It seems to be a pretty nice little village. Though overall, I would say Adirondack towns do need a little cleaning up to keep them fresh.

Vermont on the other hand has some little villages that are picture perfect but have no life whatsoever. Can almost visualize the tumbleweeds blowing down the streets. Where does all the money come from to keep these villages spotless and quaint While having little vitality?

[Moosehead]

I think some people here also don't realize that the Adirondacks are much more than just Lake Placid and Saranac Lake. Although Plattsburgh is near the ADK's, it’s not in the park. The Adirondacks stretch further down towards Saratoga and further west towards Herkimer and Utica. I see Burlington being compared to only a small portion of the ADK's. Plattsburgh is growing but is still very dependent on the college. Lots of College kids!

The ADK's aren’t for everyone. Some people love to vacation here but when you actually move here it’s a different story. The biggest challenge is there are not a lot of job opportunities. If you can come up with a successful business that will attract the tourists along with some locals you will do great. The majority of jobs consists of school teachers, correctional officers, loggers, ARC's and if your lucky a state or county job.

The real estate is also getting high and the tax's are going up as well. Many of the locals who work in the ADK's can't afford the real estate; it’s priced for people with larger incomes that don’t live in the ADK's.

But if you like the simple life, the outdoors and find a job that gets you by then the ADK's are great. As for VT, I think Burlington is great, more jobs but also more expensive to live in regards to rent. I live on the NY side of the Lake and I gotta tell ya, I know an awful lot of VT people who rent and work on the NY Side. If you can't decide you could always live in a house boat in between the two.

[thunder94]

Originally Posted by mels

The Adirondacks are more of a great wilderness due to the HUGE park. Towns are far and few between, jobs aren't plentiful (sans Plattsburgh, but that isn't exactly a hotbed of activity compared to Burlington). Because of Burlington being a decent sized city as well as housing UVM, there are many more job opportunities on the eastern side of the Lake. For job opportunities, VT has the edge over NY.

In regards to the political climate, my disclaimer is I have only lived on the VT side but have spent a good deal of time in the Adirondacks. From what I have observed, VT leans more to the left compared to the Adirondacks, which I felt to be more conservative. That is pure speculation.

Demographics...Burlington does have a more diverse population than the NY side. This may also be due to the fact that this region of VT is generally more progressive, liberal, and attracts a more diverse crowd which is also helped out by the presence of UVM. Generally there appears to be more wealth on the VT side, likely tied directly to the fact that more jobs exist on the VT side.

As for the quality of life, it all depends what you are looking for. For me, the quality of life is better on the VT side, but that is a personal preference. I like Burlington a lot and I can't pick an area on the Adirondacks side where I would want to live. Don't get me wrong, it is a gorgeous area of NY and I love to visit and take advantage of the natural beauty, but I prefer the conveniences of the VT side.

I hope my answers help you a little more!

I have'nt read the other posts after this but I do believe you hit it right great post!

[plattsburgher]

I think some people are confusing the writer's impression of Saranac, NY with the town of Saranac Lake, NY...............They are two distinct and separate animals. Saranac, NY is near the prison state of Dannemora, NY with many of the locals working at or for the prison system. They are more than likely people who have never left the state, maybe even the county. I can say that because I worked with several............Saranac Lake has the old cure cottages for TB back when people came there in the 1920's, was voted in some national contest, the second most beautiful small town in America, had poet Robert Lewis Stevenson as a resident for a few years, has a winter carnival and Garry Trudeau (of Doonesbury fame) actually designs the buttons that are sold......There are many, many second homes in Saranac Lake that are owned by downstaters and other well-to-dos. There are no second homes in Saranac, NY. Saranac Lake is in the Adirondacks nearer Lake Placid........near Whiteface Ski Area and lodges and canoe routes and lakes..........Saranac, NY has no traffic light and the biggest intersection is 4 roads that come together where the district school is and is called Picketts Corners......There is A BAR in Saranac that is well known for its clam bake.......maybe it is this weekend??????? But it not somewhere that most out of town people go to.............They would mostly do a drive-by at best......Cheers!

[Pidgett]

Plattsburgher:

EXCELLENT post! If you hadn't written it, I would have! In fact, I was going to but you beat me to it--and I'm glad you did, because it was needed....

I can't add much to what you already said; rather, I can only verify that it is very much the case vis a vis the 180 degree opposite vibe the two communities have, despite their deceptively similar names.

I am now living near Saranac Lake, in Keene. As the original poster of this thread, I have come to realize, due to my job move here, that it is not really a fair question to pose; i.e., "Is Vermont better than the ADK's?" I have come to find out that each has its similarities and differences. Here is an outline of the attributes of both areas that I have experienced for myself (yes, I am answering my own post)....

Similarities:

Very rural, tourist-oriented, severely cold winters, lots of snow, low crime, exremely scenic, mountained, heavily forested, lightly populated, highly individualistic residents.

Differences:

VT is much more populated with non-natives who have made it their quest in life to make it a utopia for liberal causes. (Not a bad thing, IMO.)

In the ADK's. much less so. The ADK's are more insular socially and geographically, so they have yet to see a large influx of non-natives changing the socio-political landscape, as has been the case in VT since the very late 60's. However, this is currently changing! An ever increasing amount of folks who are sick of the urban rat-race and have been priced-out of VT and other "discovered" rural utopias, are finidng a less-expensive "green" alternative in the ADK's. This is particularly the case in Lake Placid, Saranac Lake, Blue Mountain Lake, Keene/Keene Valley/Jay, North Creek, Peru and Essex.

VT's villages are older and have more provenance. VT was settled in the early 17th century, whereas the first Europeans didn't permanently settle in the interior ADK's until the 1830's! As a result of the 100 year lead time of settlement, VT has a plethora of picture-perfect, quaint villages that reflect the attractive architecture from the colonial period. The ADK's, in contrast, do not have many examples of pre-1830 settlements--(Essex is a notable exception)--and, as a consequence, the sparsely settled and isolated villages did not grow with a consistency of any predominant style.

The political "old-boy-network" system is firmly entrenched in the ADK's, and, while this is thankfully being undermined by a new political wind blowing through the balsam and maples up here, it is sadly over-represented by old school Republicanism. (It should be noted that this brand of Republicanism is different than the George W Bush variety, in that most of them up here are live-and-let-live types, i.e., socially liberal (or at least neutral) and fiscally conservative.) Many Democrats are slowly making inroads, but their progress is slow. On the state level, NYS is famously dysfunctional, extremely partisan at the State Capital and overly-harsh and feisty. Because of this, NYS can be inscrutible politically. Perhaps it is too big, too populated and too diverse to govern effectively. From a political perspective, perhaps NYS should separate from Metro NYC/Long Island/NYC Suburbia in order to bring much need political "order."....

In contrast, VT's small geography and small population make it a place whereby effective governing is quite doable---and it appears to work for VT! Are they perfect? Is there a sense of common purpose? Of course not! But at least in VT the people have a say in their government on the town level via Town Meetibng Day each year. This is perhaps the best form of citizen's democracy practiced in the USA. Sure wish we had THAT in NYS!

Best,

Pidgett

PS--The Tri-Lakes area of the Adirondacks is wonderful. Incredible scenery, boundless recreational opportunities and very low crime await anyone who wishes to visit or make a move to the Saranac Lake area.

[dianalb67]

WE live on Upper Saranac Lake and use Verizon broadband...I have Road Runner at home and the Verizon broadband's speed seems similar to me although technically RR is faster.