Please give me advice... we're out of ideas. (Christmas, house, acquaintance)
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Don't get too hung up on the "Ruby Bridges" (Dr Ruby Payne?) thing. Like even you said, there is some truth to her stuff.
In order to work effectively with the program I work with, we had to go through several types of training. The "Bridges out of Poverty" series was just one step of that training.
My point is that it helps a LOT to try to get into the mindset of others we are trying to help. What I found helpful about the Bridges out of Poverty training is that it clearly shows that different social classes IN GENERAL (of course there are exceptions) have some differing values because they have different needs and challenges. One of the most interesting parts of the training consisted of questions asking us how well we would survive in a low income situation for a month. It was very eye opening. If you don't have a job, don't have a car, don't have enough money for bills, (fill in the blank) would you know how to go about feeding your family, getting medical treatment, etc?
I lived among the very poor, in a ghetto basically, dirt poor myself, for several years. I saw these behaviors and values first hand. I know the sense of helplessness and frustration and "living for the moment" because the future seems so helplessly bleak. I do not blame people who are stuck in this rut or assume that it's because of their "character flaws." I think it's all based on a lack of hope and a sense of personal insecurity and lack of self worth.
It IS possible to break this self destructive cycle but the person has to have a lot of inner strength and discipline. Most importantly, they have to have HOPE. They have to know that it is possible to build a different life. They need role models.
They do NOT need enablers. There's a big difference. The OP has to get his head around those differences.
I don't disagree with anything you are saying. I think you are dead on... people need to see a realistic path out and have belief that they can achieve it, and have the OPPORTUNITY to achieve it, as well as the discipline and perserverence to stick to the path. Absolutely agree this girl is NOT there and until her mentality changes nothing else will change.
Don't get too hung up on the "Ruby Bridges" (Dr Ruby Payne?) thing. Like even you said, there is some truth to her stuff.
In order to work effectively with the program I work with, we had to go through several types of training. The "Bridges out of Poverty" series was just one step of that training.
My point is that it helps a LOT to try to get into the mindset of others we are trying to help. What I found helpful about the Bridges out of Poverty training is that it clearly shows that different social classes IN GENERAL (of course there are exceptions) have some differing values because they have different needs and challenges. One of the most interesting parts of the training consisted of questions asking us how well we would survive in a low income situation for a month. It was very eye opening. If you don't have a job, don't have a car, don't have enough money for bills, (fill in the blank) would you know how to go about feeding your family, getting medical treatment, etc?
I lived among the very poor, in a ghetto basically, dirt poor myself, for several years. I saw these behaviors and values first hand. I know the sense of helplessness and frustration and "living for the moment" because the future seems so helplessly bleak. I do not blame people who are stuck in this rut or assume that it's because of their "character flaws." I think it's all based on a lack of hope and a sense of personal insecurity and lack of self worth.
It IS possible to break this self destructive cycle but the person has to have a lot of inner strength and discipline. Most importantly, they have to have HOPE. They have to know that it is possible to build a different life. They need role models.
They do NOT need enablers. There's a big difference. The OP has to get his head around those differences.
Well, cutting them off completely from my life might be the easiest thing for me, but is it really necessary?
Suppose we continue letting them hang out with us but when they ask for money or moving in then it's a no no?
I'm thinking we can slowly lead by example. I have a secure career. My boyfriend is getting straight A's in college. Our relationship is 3 years in and going strong. We don't argue. We live very frugally.
While I understand everyone's concern, and I really really appreciate it, not trying to change their way of thinking kinda goes against my principles.
I will read the linked materials and see if there's something I can show to the sisters.
Maybe a few people including the OP mentioned the poor but dysfunction, alcoholism, irresponsible procreation, laziness, shortsightedness and poor decision making can be found at any level of society. That these traits seem to be predominate in the poor has several causes, that of being too poor to throw money at the situation and cultural/societal role modeling that becomes cyclical and self reinforcing. My middle class uncle has three boys, one dead, two more well on the way. My wealthy sister and her husband had to have their troubled son be physically removed to an isolated boot camp for troubled teens. Fortunately the money that they could afford to throw at the situation reversed the course he was on. On the other side my working class cousins in one family has one daughter dead, multiple no father in sight offspring foisted off on the parents or siblings and at least a few are permanent installations on welfare. In my own family this is easily observed regardless of financial status.
That said, you can't easily fix these issues, the poor decision making (shorthand=stupid) the desire for instant gratification, the unwillingness to do the hard stuff that it will take to pull out of the spiral of bad choices. That is what I believe the vast majority of people are trying to warn the OP about. It doesn't matter that they are poor as much as they seem to be unwilling and unable to change their circumstances. The girl wants a baby not the type of help that the OP wants to offer. Fortunately the OP has seen the wisdom of not bringing an uncooperative dysfunctional individual into their home, creating nothing but misery in their wake.
Well, cutting them off completely from my life might be the easiest thing for me, but is it really necessary?
Suppose we continue letting them hang out with us but when they ask for money or moving in then it's a no no?
1. Think things through: How will your life be one year from now, or ten years from now, if you cleanly and surgically cut contact with the siblings? You know the answer already: You will be in good financial shape, secure, self-respecting, and most likely with a life partner who falls into step alongside your path in life.
2. How will your life be if you continue to "hang out" with the guy who has already swindled you out of $1,500? With gals who walk away from gainful employment? With the sister who publically ridiculed your hospitality in a restaurant?
3. Do you somehow think that you are above psychological manipulation? That you'll suddenly find some hitherto unaccessed wellspring of bone-deep self-respect to say "No" to the guy who has already successfully flam-flammed you once before?That you'll suddenly become a pillar of unwavering good judgement and circumspection when one of the sister has some great-tragic-unforeseeable-disaster in her life (for the umpteenth time)?
Good luck with that.
Come back this time next year and tell us the unvarnished truth about how your Social Experiment turns out.
Well, cutting them off completely from my life might be the easiest thing for me, but is it really necessary?
Suppose we continue letting them hang out with us but when they ask for money or moving in then it's a no no?
I'm thinking we can slowly lead by example. I have a secure career. My boyfriend is getting straight A's in college. Our relationship is 3 years in and going strong. We don't argue. We live very frugally.
OK, to clarify - I never suggested cutting them completely out of your life.
All most people are saying here is that you can lead by example, but they are not recommending that you allow any of the siblings to move into your house or take advantage of you economically.
And what I'm suggesting is that you figure out THEIR mindset before trying to help them much. Until you understand where they are coming from, you will not be able to reach them effectively.
Even when you do understand more about their mindset, you still cannot expect them to change. The only person's actions you can control are your own. You are not responsible for anyone but yourself. Don't put too much hope and emotion into "saving" any of these people because you can't save them from themselves. All you can do is model responsible behavior, treat them fairly, and try to understand their perspective so that when you interact with them, you're not acting like some sort of alien to them or speaking a language they can't understand.
To repeat - I didn't say cut anyone completely out of your life. That you went there tells me something about your inability to apply objective reasoning to this situation. Think about it. You're too emotional about this. Educate yourself about boundaries and social dynamics and apply some rational thought to your relationships with this family.
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While I understand everyone's concern, and I really really appreciate it, not trying to change their way of thinking kinda goes against my principles.
You can't change other people. And it's not your responsibility to. You can only change yourself.
Look, sad but true - most people don't change much over time. If you spend your life hoping you can do something to make someone else change, you will waste a lot of emotional energy and possibly do irreparable harm to your own health and wellbeing by hanging on to the pipe dream of "If I can only figure out what makes them tick - what I can do to elicit a different response - what I need to do to get them to act this way..." Wow - don't go there. If you're already there (and it sounds like you are), get the hell out of Dodge.
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I will read the linked materials and see if there's something I can show to the sisters.
Good on reading the links, bad on showing the sisters. Why do you think you need to show them some academic studies and papers on differences of mindset and values between social classes? Do you honestly think they are going to read them or take them to heart? Do you think they are going to see themselves in it and suddenly wake up and smell the coffee and change their lives?
YOU read them, then sit back and observe. Decide for yourself whether or not the categories and synopses are true in your situation.
I suggest that you also read "The Road Less Traveled," and "People of the Lie" - both by M Scott Peck. Classics. Oh and the tried and true classic "Co Dependent No More" as well.
Well, cutting them off completely from my life might be the easiest thing for me, but is it really necessary?
Suppose we continue letting them hang out with us but when they ask for money or moving in then it's a no no?
I'm thinking we can slowly lead by example. I have a secure career. My boyfriend is getting straight A's in college. Our relationship is 3 years in and going strong. We don't argue. We live very frugally.
While I understand everyone's concern, and I really really appreciate it, not trying to change their way of thinking kinda goes against my principles.
I will read the linked materials and see if there's something I can show to the sisters.
I'm going to push against the grain here and say you don't need to cut them out of your life completely. Cutting off one's entire family is a huge step and your boyfriend might not be ready for that, plus it's not the kind of thing you can push him into without running the risk of fostering some major resentment between you.
I think what you can do is draw boundaries around what you are willing to do concerning money and support. No living with you and no more loans. It's up to you if you want to continue taking them out for the occasional dinner or whatnot.
I do think these kinds of situations often end with the family mad at the one person with money the first time that person refuses to help with a "crisis", so the happy times won't last forever. Get ready for it, and try to get your boyfriend ready for it too.
Well, cutting them off completely from my life might be the easiest thing for me, but is it really necessary?
Suppose we continue letting them hang out with us but when they ask for money or moving in then it's a no no?
I'm thinking we can slowly lead by example. I have a secure career. My boyfriend is getting straight A's in college. Our relationship is 3 years in and going strong. We don't argue. We live very frugally.
While I understand everyone's concern, and I really really appreciate it, not trying to change their way of thinking kinda goes against my principles.
I will read the linked materials and see if there's something I can show to the sisters.
The reason why people are saying cut them out is because it's the easiest thing to do when it comes to those that have no sense of boundaries. Those with the POOR mentality do not generally respect boundaries. They do not care, they'll just wait to do it again. You haven't even yet relay one promising act from the sisters, haven't showed any willingness to make that change.
My MIL and youngest SIL have the poor mentality. My husband and I have given over $12,000 to my MIL-- She never once indicated appreciation. Instead, she lashed out and said we've never ever helped her out. We've brought my SIL her first car, husband fixed it up and made it into a very reliable car. She was so embarrassed that it wasn't a "nice" car to be seen with, but it got her places without any problems. We even sponsored trips, brought lift tickets, clothes, etc because we thought Hey, if SIL gets exposed to these things, she'll want these things and work for it. We were totally fooling ourselves. Both MIL and SIL have a thinking process where they've justified that they're ENTITLED not to work... Because you know, they don't want to. No amount of reality will ever change that thinking process. They never follow any advice-- and I understood then my dear friend meant when she said: "Do not throw pearls at swine." There was ALWAYS some stupid drama going on... And they of course were the perpetual victims. We saw them screw over friends and other family members-- well, they were "trash" who deserved it, or "jerks who have it easy". No amount of money was ever enough for MIL, she won't work-- so she prays to God to bring her money. I've told her that God only help those who help themselves -- got scoffed at. She sits and complains about every aspects of her life (but does nothing change it), she talks crap about her friends, her husband, her sisters, her kids and grandkids. She creates conflicts with everyone she knows just so she can complain some more. SIL hangs out with a bad crowd, purposely because she doesn't want to be around people who are doing better than her. After all, how else is she going to be wise one, handing out her "pearls". SIL gave her car away, just so she can appear magnanimous... Then turned around and demanded a car because now she needed one. Naturally we said no and were made out to be the world's biggest a-holes. All this is the tip of the iceberg.
Ultimately, we had to cut them out because they brought trouble to my home---and we lived 3 hours away!!! But even if we didn't cut out, their presence would've been curtailed because we couldn't handle the constant mewings of their "unfortunate" life and how we have it so much easier. Them being out of our lives brought peace and quiet we longed for, now we live on the other coast-- and there's much more relief in that because they can't show up at our door. But they still try to contact us. Actually I should take back what I said. My MIL wrote me a letter and told me that she loved it when I would sit there and patiently listen to her and be so generous with my time and money-- and she wanted to go back to that because it made her life at least a bit enjoyable. I guess that's one indication of appreciation... I just have to overlook the fact that she never apologized for making racist and anti-immigrant comments (I am a daughter of a Japanese immigrant), never apologized for screaming and calling me slurs and other names IN FRONT OF MY CHILD.
No one is worth this much trouble. If you can skip a black hole, then do so.
Having people in my own family that are dysfunctional I understand clearly what I will and won't do for them. I'm not cut off from them but I do draw lines that I just don't cross, ever.
A number of years ago I got a call from a panicked family member in trouble with money asking for a 10K loan. (Not!) They had run up credit card debt to the tune of 25K and could no longer afford the payments. I gave some very good very detailed financial advice that had they followed it would have wiped out the debt completely. Of course they looked for the easy way out, tapped out my grandfather to the tune of well over 100K over the next two years unbeknownst to anyone (until later when he passed) lost their home and it's equity to foreclosure anyway and to this day are completely irresponsible with money having learned nothing at all. Their home is falling apart and my DH and I came to help with labor (no money lending) because there are children in the home but the suck of the vacuum of want was too much for us. We decided that we couldn't move too close to this family member or they would try to pull us under with their continual pressing needs while they fritter what they have away irresponsibly. We can't fix it just like the OP can't fix his SO's family, not even the one sister.
I know from much personal experience that you can love someone, hope for them, offer them opportunities, model responsibility and it's rewards until you are blue in the face but unless they are willing to change, it is what it is and the OP needs to learn to protect himself from being taken advantage of. He also needs to be sure his SO is on board with this as well or the relationship may be doomed. I wish him well.
Last edited by AK-Cathy; 08-05-2015 at 11:43 AM..
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