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There were also many Highland Scots who came into NC via Wilmington and settled the Cape Fear River watershed in southeastern NC: North Carolina History Project : Highland Scots I am descended from these people, and my grandmother always said we were "Scotch Irish". I'm not sure if the Irish part was due to intermarriage after arriving in America, or if it happened before they left Europe. Regardless, this group is different from the ones who came to NC via Philadelphia and other northern places as described earlier in this thread. They had large populations in Richmond, Scotland, Hoke, Cumberland counties, and points east/southeast of there. You'll still find many "Mc..." last names in the region.
Yes, the highland scots were a completely different group of people than the scots-irish. The highlanders came directly to NC (and other colonies) directly from Scotland, as opposed to coming through northern Ireland as the scots-irish did. There was no irish in the highlanders (and really none in the scots-irish, either).
hmm that's a fair point but i would chalk it up to more semantic differences. I mean the scotch-irish immigration was a lot more carte blanche whereas puritans as we know it were smaller more religious hardliners. So it's not exactly apples to apples. Not to mention the time gap in immigration waves here.
But you know on that point I think there is some residue I mean it gets at the spirit of the whole bible belt distinction of the south and why I can't buy beer on sunday morning.
I mean people aren't exactly calling Massachusetts the bible belt today.
Not understanding what you mean by that. There's many real cultural differences between the puritans and the scots-irish. Its not just a matter of "semantics". The 2 groups had very real differences in their world view, lifestyle, etc.
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im not able to fully tease it out but how were the puritans and presbyterians that different?
How were the 'puritans' different from scotch irish? Is that just to say they lived in england proper?
Both churches were reformed and influenced by calvinism (just like the presbyterians).
1. reformed
2. inspired by calvin
3. conflict with the church of england
edit i use scotch-irish and presbyterian interchangeably but at the time national and religious identity were closely coupled and I think we can all i agree the 'scotch-irish' were mainly presbyterian.
Scotch-Irish is not interchangeable with Presbyterian. Most were probably Presbyterian but certainly not all. Nobody really knows the percentage.
You need to know & understand the early immigration to Philadelphia to deal with understanding the Scotch-Irish immigration to North Carolina. They go hand-in-hand. Many of the Scotch-Irish who came to colonial NC left family in Pennsylvania, South Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, & Virginia.
To this day is it is openly discussed in the Philadelphia area that the bulk of the Quakers who came to Philadelphia & South Jersey/West Jersey were "Irish" Quakers. My mother's maiden name may have been Presbyterian. However a different Scotch-Irish name further back was Quaker & I've found the immigrant in meeting records in Ulster Province.
The Puritans, Presbyterians, & Quakers were all labeled "Dissenters" because they were not Anglicans. The similarity ends there. Puritans drove Quakers out of Massachusetts. Some Quaker families were related to some Baptist families but the religions are not the same.
Not understanding what you mean by that. There's many real cultural differences between the puritans and the scots-irish. Its not just a matter of "semantics". The 2 groups had very real differences in their world view, lifestyle, etc.
you are judging groups a century apart. 1600s and 1700s.
The question I guess is was NC puritanical in flavour in the 1600s.
Heck in the 1700s i don't think the puritan colonies were that puritan anymore
Or were the scotch irish puritanical in the 1600s?
Scotch-Irish is not interchangeable with Presbyterian. Most were probably Presbyterian but certainly not all. Nobody really knows the percentage.
You need to know & understand the early immigration to Philadelphia to deal with understanding the Scotch-Irish immigration to North Carolina. They go hand-in-hand. Many of the Scotch-Irish who came to colonial NC left family in Pennsylvania, South Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, & Virginia.
To this day is it is openly discussed in the Philadelphia area that the bulk of the Quakers who came to Philadelphia & South Jersey/West Jersey were "Irish" Quakers. My mother's maiden name may have been Presbyterian. However a different Scotch-Irish name further back was Quaker & I've found the immigrant in meeting records in Ulster Province.
The Puritans, Presbyterians, & Quakers were all labeled "Dissenters" because they were not Anglicans. The similarity ends there. Puritans drove Quakers out of Massachusetts. Some Quaker families were related to some Baptist families but the religions are not the same.
yes
I wonder if this is true. NO scotch irish in the east???
from wiki >
Immigration from north[edit]
The colony grew rapidly from a population of 100,000 in 1752 to 200,000 in 1765.[29] By 1760, enslaved Africans constituted one-quarter of the population and were concentrated along the coast.
In the late eighteenth century, the tide of immigration to North Carolina from Virginia and Pennsylvania began to swell.[29] The Scots-Irish (Ulster Protestants) from what is today Northern Ireland were the largest immigrant group from the British Isles to the colonies before the Revolution.[30][31][32][31] In total, English indentured servants, who arrived mostly in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, comprised the majority of English settlers prior to the Revolution.[32][33] On the eve of the American Revolution, North Carolina was the fastest-growing British colony in North America. The small family farms of the Piedmont contrasted sharply with the plantation economy of the coastal region, where wealthy planters had established a slave society, growing tobacco and rice with slave labor.
Differences in the settlement patterns of eastern and western North Carolina, or the low country and uplands, affected the political, economic, and social life of the state from the eighteenth until the twentieth century. The Tidewater in eastern North Carolina was settled chiefly by immigrants from rural England and the Scottish Highlands. The upcountry of western North Carolina was settled chiefly by Scots-Irish, English and German Protestants, the so-called "cohee". During the Revolutionary War, the English and Highland Scots of eastern North Carolina tended to remain loyal to the British Crown, because of longstanding business and personal connections with Great Britain. The English, Welsh, Scots-Irish and German settlers of western North Carolina tended to favor American independence from Britain.
With no cities and very few towns or villages, the colony was rural and thinly populated. Local taverns provided multiple services ranging from strong drink, beds for travelers, and meeting rooms for politicians and businessmen. In a world sharply divided along lines of ethnicity, gender, race, and class, the tavern keepers' rum proved a solvent that mixed together all sorts of locals, as well as travelers. The increasing variety of drinks on offer, and the emergence of private clubs meeting in the taverns, showed that genteel culture was spreading from London to the periphery of the English world.[34]
The courthouse was usually the most imposing building in a county. Jails were often an important part of the courthouse but were sometimes built separately. Some county governments built tobacco warehouses to provide a common service for their most important export crop.[35]
you are judging groups a century apart. 1600s and 1700s.
Well, there's no way around that. But I don't see what has to do with anything. One can still examine their cultural differences. Time had nothing to do with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_guy
The question I guess is was NC puritanical in flavour in the 1600s.
NC didn't have a "flavor" in the 1600's, at least relative to european settlers. Only the far northeastern corner on NC had any european residents at that time. The first permanent european resident of NC didn't occur until 1655.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_guy
Heck in the 1700s i don't think the puritan colonies were that puritan anymore
Their influence on New England continues to this day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_guy
Or were the scotch irish puritanical in the 1600s?
I don't think anyone has ever described scots-irish as being puritanical.
Were the presbyterians puritanical in England in the 1600s..during the american puritan colonies as we know them....
If by puritanical you mean:
"Very strict in moral or religious matters, often excessively so; rigidly austere."
then I would say no.
It may help you to understand that today's "Bible Belt" came into being in the 20th century, led largely by an increasingly socially conservative Baptist Church in the south.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_guy
yes
I wonder if this is true. NO scotch irish in the east???
from wiki >
Immigration from north[edit]
The colony grew rapidly from a population of 100,000 in 1752 to 200,000 in 1765.[29] By 1760, enslaved Africans constituted one-quarter of the population and were concentrated along the coast.
In the late eighteenth century, the tide of immigration to North Carolina from Virginia and Pennsylvania began to swell.[29] The Scots-Irish (Ulster Protestants) from what is today Northern Ireland were the largest immigrant group from the British Isles to the colonies before the Revolution.[30][31][32][31] In total, English indentured servants, who arrived mostly in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, comprised the majority of English settlers prior to the Revolution.[32][33] On the eve of the American Revolution, North Carolina was the fastest-growing British colony in North America. The small family farms of the Piedmont contrasted sharply with the plantation economy of the coastal region, where wealthy planters had established a slave society, growing tobacco and rice with slave labor.
Differences in the settlement patterns of eastern and western North Carolina, or the low country and uplands, affected the political, economic, and social life of the state from the eighteenth until the twentieth century. The Tidewater in eastern North Carolina was settled chiefly by immigrants from rural England and the Scottish Highlands. The upcountry of western North Carolina was settled chiefly by Scots-Irish, English and German Protestants, the so-called "cohee". During the Revolutionary War, the English and Highland Scots of eastern North Carolina tended to remain loyal to the British Crown, because of longstanding business and personal connections with Great Britain. The English, Welsh, Scots-Irish and German settlers of western North Carolina tended to favor American independence from Britain.
With no cities and very few towns or villages, the colony was rural and thinly populated. Local taverns provided multiple services ranging from strong drink, beds for travelers, and meeting rooms for politicians and businessmen. In a world sharply divided along lines of ethnicity, gender, race, and class, the tavern keepers' rum proved a solvent that mixed together all sorts of locals, as well as travelers. The increasing variety of drinks on offer, and the emergence of private clubs meeting in the taverns, showed that genteel culture was spreading from London to the periphery of the English world.[34]
The courthouse was usually the most imposing building in a county. Jails were often an important part of the courthouse but were sometimes built separately. Some county governments built tobacco warehouses to provide a common service for their most important export crop.[35]
You need to study the settlement of Ulster Province, the founding & settlement of Philadelphia, the southern migration patterns south & west from Philadelphia & a bit of knowledge of South Jersey/West Jersey doesn't hurt. Add to that you need to read up on the English/British wars. Some of the highlanders who were brought to the colonies as prisoners after various wars/battles may have been related to some of the Scotch-Irish. They came in totally different ways. Some of the highlanders were dispersed from Massachusetts to South Carolina. Some were just dumped on the Carolina coast. The more unfortunate prisoners were taken to the Caribbean islands to work on the sugar cane plantations.
As to Quakers & Baptists, the religions originated in northern England. I've seen references to the colonial Quakers who immigrated to the Piedmont as English. However many of the same families are referred to as Irish in the Philadelphia area.
You have to understand that discussion of the Scotch-Irish requires a knowledge of many different places, people, & events.
Equating Scotch-Irish & Presbyterian is just wrong. Ties of the Presbyterians & Puritans are circumstantial.
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