Does snow stay longer than a few days in NOVA? (Richmond: school, live in)

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by blueva

I just find it hard to believe that Palm Trees could even thrive for a little while in the PNW.

In Southeast VA is where I heard is the furthest north they can thrive. We have some in Richmond and they work okay here.

DC is definitely colder than say- um, Mississippi. But believe me its NOTHING like the cold hard Northeast winters. I was visiting friends in Upstate New York and saw snow on the ground - IN APRIL!!

The climate on the West Coast is milder overall within the same latitude than a comparable area back east. San Francisco is as far north as Wash DC----------and, has palm trees, citrus, etc. In fact: one can grow oranges, etc. in Redding, Ca.; try that in Upstate New York------------again, similar latitude.

In fact: Climate Zone 8 (which covers SE Virginia) goes as further north than Seattle.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by car54

I don't know if the whole "global warming" thing is legit or not...nor do I want to open that politically charged can of worms.....BUT it sure seems like it used to snow a lot more around here.

I will never forget the Blizzard of '66 ('58 and '79 were beauts too)! It was a true blizzard with gale force winds and 2+ feet of snow. Drifts made houses disappear! Schools were closed for a week and a half and the snow took a month to completely melt.

About today's weather related school closings....I can't think of a more thankless job than having to that make that call! If they open schools and a kid gets hurt....bring on the lawyers. If they close and nothing much happens....Oh, the outcry! They can't win.

And they are a bit gunshy here in Fairfax County due to an incident that occurred about 5 years ago. It was raining one morning and the temperature was hovering at just above freezing. They decided to open schools at the normal time. Suddenly the temp dropped below freezing....and we wrecked 40 buses in about 30 minutes! Nobody will forget that morning for a good long while!

I remember the Blizzard of 1966 as well....................and, remember the Winter of 1977------------it was brutally cold throughout most of February. Not all that much snow but about 10F colder than average for weeks on end. That was the winter that finally forced me to leave DC and move to California----------I damn near died that year.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by popalnet

I guess because of global warming and the urban island heating effect, DC has been bumped up one zone by USDA to USDA zone 8: Hardiness zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The USDA zone map basically is a guide for the types of plants that can grow in an area. Seattle and DC are both in the same zone - USDA zone 8. This basically means that the coldest winter temps range from 20 - 10 degrees F.

I've posted this information before on another thread, and I had a few people jump all over me about how DC winter is a lot harsher than Seattle. For the most part, Seattle is a little milder for low temps during the winter compared to DC, but it's pretty depressing gray most of the winter in Seattle.

As far as palm trees are concerned, I've actually seen palm trees in a few neighborhoods in DC and Nova. The palm that people in DC have been experimenting with and are having good success is the Chinese Windmill Palm, also know as trachycarpus fortune. Like this in SE DC: http://img2.putfile.com/main/12/33720571668.jpg

I also have a buddy in Nova who's had Windmill Palms in his back yard for the last 9 years. It's about 10 feet now. I've even seen a 20 footer in Sterling, in Nova. But of course palms isn't something that you will likely see. Unless you like palms, you could plant windmill palms with no winter protection in DC and be successful.

Despite what the USDA maps state: DC ain't no Climate Zone 8------maybe a mild 7 a best. Tuscon is counted as a Zone 8 as well..........and, the winters there are much milder than NoVa. We are discussing palm trees, citrus, etc. and maybe a few inches of snow every 5-1o years.

[popalnet]

Originally Posted by ArizonaBear

Despite what the USDA maps state: DC ain't no Climate Zone 8------maybe a mild 7 a best. Tuscon is counted as a Zone 8 as well..........and, the winters there are much milder than NoVa. We are discussing palm trees, citrus, etc. and maybe a few inches of snow every 5-1o years.

Then take that up with the USDA.

[popalnet]

Originally Posted by stockdale.35

Dont think so, per weather.com

On average University Of Richmond, VA is warmer than Washington, DC by 1°F.

University Of Richmond, VA recorded the highest temperature of 107°F in 1918.

On average University Of Richmond, VA is cooler than Washington, DC by 1°F.

The lowest temperature, -15°F in Washington, DC, was recorded in 1899.

On average, University Of Richmond, VA is wetter than Washington, DC by 4.6in.

As you'll see, DC low temps are slightly milder for the most part than Richmond.

Per the national weather service:


January 2008 for Washington National Airport:
================================================== ==============================
1 2 3 4 5 6A 6B 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
AVG MX 2MIN
DY MAX MIN AVG DEP HDD CDD WTR SNW DPTH SPD SPD DIR MIN PSBL S-S WX SPD DR
================================================== ==============================

1 54 36 45 9 20 0 0.00 0.0 0 13.4 26 300 M M 4 36 300
2 38 25 32 -4 33 0 T T 0 18.4 32 330 M M 5 40 330
3 34 22 28 -8 37 0 0.00 0.0 0 10.8 22 330 M M 2 30 330
4 41 21 31 -4 34 0 0.00 0.0 0 5.9 14 170 M M 3 16 170
5 43 28 36 1 29 0 T 0.0 0 3.6 12 160 M M 8 13 160
6 55 38 47 12 18 0 0.20 0.0 0 2.9 12 170 M M 8 1 13 170
7 69 46 58 23 7 0 0.00 0.0 0 8.4 13 180 M M 8 15 190
8 73 48 61 26 4 0 0.00 0.0 0 11.2 25 200 M M 6 31 200
9 68 47 58 23 7 0 0.00 0.0 0 11.9 24 290 M M 7 33 190
10 52 40 46 11 19 0 0.18 0.0 0 3.8 13 110 M M 10 1 14 110
11 59 43 51 16 14 0 0.15 0.0 0 4.5 20 350 M M 8 128 25 350
12 54 42 48 13 17 0 0.00 0.0 0 6.9 14 330 M M 7 16 330
13 49 36 43 8 22 0 0.03 0.0 0 6.9 14 110 M M 7 17 100
14 47 35 41 6 24 0 T T 0 8.4 24 310 M M 8 8 29 280
15 40 30 35 1 30 0 T T 0 9.0 26 290 M M 4 32 290
16 44 32 38 4 27 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.6 20 320 M M 6 28 320
17 39 34 37 3 28 0 0.75 1.3 0 6.2 13 320 M M 10 124 16 340
18 49 33 41 7 24 0 T 0.0 1 6.6 12 200 M M 8 18 15 330
19 42 36 39 5 26 0 T T 0 6.9 12 180 M M 10 15 180
20 37 19 28 -6 37 0 0.00 0.0 0 15.3 26 320 M M 3 35 330
21 32 18 25 -10 40 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.3 14 190 M M 1 18 330
22 42 26 34 -1 31 0 T 0.0 0 11.1 18 200 M M 9 22 210
23 48 30 39 4 26 0 0.00 0.0 0 9.2 28 330 M M 5 32 330
24 43 28 36 1 29 0 0.00 0.0 0 9.8 28 330 M M 6 33 320
25 36 22 29 -6 36 0 0.00 0.0 0 9.5 24 340 M M 2 30 340
26 40 29 35 0 30 0 0.00 0.0 0 5.1 12 90 M M 9 15 90
27 45 30 38 3 27 0 0.00 0.0 0 8.3 21 330 M M 6 25 330
28 47 33 40 5 25 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.1 15 340 M M 6 20 310
29 54 33 44 9 21 0 0.05 0.0 0 4.1 13 190 M M 9 20 190
30 56 36 46 11 19 0 0.01 0.0 0 15.4 30 300 M M 4 39 300
31 45 28 37 2 28 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.7 17 320 M M 4 22 320
================================================== ==============================
SM 1475 1004 769 0 1.37 1.3 263.2 M 193
================================================== ==============================
AV 47.6 32.4 8.5 FASTST PSBL % 6 MAX(MPH)
MISC ----> # 32 330 # 40 330
================================================== ==============================



January 2008 for Richmond, VA:
TEMPERATURE IN F: :PCPN: SNOW: WIND :SUNSHINE: SKY :PK WND
================================================== ==============================
1 2 3 4 5 6A 6B 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
AVG MX 2MIN
DY MAX MIN AVG DEP HDD CDD WTR SNW DPTH SPD SPD DIR MIN PSBL S-S WX SPD DR
================================================== ==============================

1 55 35 45 8 20 0 0.00 0.0 0 11.7 25 320 M M 1 32 320
2 37 27 32 -5 33 0 T T 0 16.1 29 350 M M 4 37 350
3 34 18 26 -11 39 0 0.00 0.0 0 9.1 25 360 M M 1 32 360
4 45 16 31 -6 34 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.4 18 250 M M 1 22 220
5 51 26 39 2 26 0 0.00 0.0 0 8.3 14 250 M M 7 17 240
6 66 39 53 16 12 0 T 0.0 0 7.9 16 250 M M 7 18 250
7 74 43 59 22 6 0 0.00 0.0 0 8.1 14 230 M M 6 16 230
8 71 48 60 24 5 0 0.00 0.0 0 10.5 26 230 M M 7 1 31 230
9 73 42 58 22 7 0 0.00 0.0 0 11.4 25 280 M M 7 30 240
10 54 39 47 11 18 0 0.04 0.0 0 4.6 12 120 M M 8 1 15 110
11 71 47 59 23 6 0 0.03 0.0 0 11.4 32 240 M M 9 1 44 240
12 55 39 47 11 18 0 0.00 0.0 0 5.9 12 20 M M 7 15 20
13 47 32 40 4 25 0 0.06 0.0 0 5.8 12 20 M M 7 18 15 360
14 49 34 42 6 23 0 0.00 0.0 0 8.6 18 300 M M 5 128 26 290
15 41 23 32 -4 33 0 0.00 0.0 0 9.7 31 310 M M 2 40 330
16 44 32 38 2 27 0 0.00 0.0 0 5.1 17 10 M M 6 M M
17 37 32 35 -1 30 0 0.60 T 0 6.9 15 340 M M 10 14 18 340
18 53 34 44 8 21 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.9 15 260 M M 8 1 20 280
19 44 32 38 2 27 0 0.11 0.8 1 4.4 12 80 M M 10 18 15 70
20 34 15 25 -11 40 0 T T 1 10.5 22 330 M M 4 1 29 320
21 34 12 23 -13 42 0 0.00 0.0 T 2.8 8 150 M M 0 8 10 150
22 45 21 33 -3 32 0 0.01 T 0 8.1 16 220 M M 9 4 20 240
23 49 29 39 3 26 0 0.00 0.0 0 3.3 10 50 M M 6 1 16 90
24 40 27 34 -2 31 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.8 23 10 M M 8 1 30 360
25 37 20 29 -7 36 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.1 23 10 M M 1 32 360
26 45 25 35 -1 30 0 0.00 0.0 0 2.7 10 230 M M 9 14 230
27 45 31 38 1 27 0 0.00 0.0 0 6.6 15 20 M M 9 20 340
28 50 30 40 3 25 0 0.00 0.0 0 5.5 16 330 M M 4 20 320
29 61 33 47 10 18 0 0.01 0.0 0 9.6 22 210 M M 9 28 220
30 57 32 45 8 20 0 0.10 0.0 0 12.0 29 310 M M 4 1 38 300
31 47 26 37 0 28 0 0.00 0.0 0 6.9 15 50 M M 4 18 50
================================================== ==============================
SM 1545 939 765 0 0.96 0.8 243.7 M 180
================================================== ==============================
AV 49.8 30.3 7.9 FASTST PSBL % 6 MAX(MPH)
MISC ----> # 32 240 # 44 240
================================================== ====================

[normie]

Winters here are schizophrenic. Some years are very mild, some years are more harsh. Not as harsh as the midwest... but let's just say you'll get sick of shovelling snow. We've had a few mild years, so my guess is this winter will be snowy.

One fun thing to do is look for Woolly Bears. These are cute red and brown caterpillars (they're very fat and fuzzy like teddy bears, that's how they got their name). They live in bushes and you start seeing them sleeping on sunny bits of pavement once the days turn cooler.

According to legend, the wider that middle brown section is the milder the coming winter will be. Conversely, a narrow brown band is said to predict a harsh winter.

[normie]

Speaking about trees, I've also seen palm trees locally (although we're stretching the limits for trees like that). They can survive here if you put them in protected warmer spots. Be sure to add a lot of sand to the soil. I don't know what people do if the winter turns cold--maybe they knit big, colorful sweaters for them? Meadowlark Gardens even has a big banana tree.

[popalnet]

Originally Posted by normie

Speaking about trees, I've also seen palm trees locally (although we're stretching the limits for trees like that). They can survive here if you put them in protected warmer spots. Be sure to add a lot of sand to the soil. I don't know what people do if the winter turns cold--maybe they knit big, colorful sweaters for them? Meadowlark Gardens even has a big banana tree.

I think the kind of palm that you're referring to is the Windmill Palm. I've seen several Windmill Palms in the DC area. This is the same kind of palm that is throughout the NW and SW Canada. It's hardy down to 5 degrees F and there's been reports of it surviving short bursts -5 F.

[notinnj]

Originally Posted by popalnet

Then take that up with the USDA.

The updated USDA maps which are not yet official do show parts of the DC area well within the Beltway within zone 8, but some areas out in the western counties might dip into zone 6. DC area is mostly a mild 7. The Zones don't really say much about the climate as they only take absolute lowest winter temperatures into consideration. Atlanta Georgia is also zone 7 because temperatures there can briefly go very low considering the southern location. Seattle is zone 8, but which place is warmer the vast majority of the time? Regarding snow, even in the snowiest DC winters the snow never sticks around very long. Indeed there seems to be a pattern where mild temperatures and often times rain precedes the big snows. I recall this from the snows of 1996 and 2003.

[stockdale.35]

Originally Posted by popalnet

As you'll see, DC low temps are slightly milder for the most part than Richmond.

Per the national weather service:


January 2008 for Washington National Airport:
================================================== ==============================
1 2 3 4 5 6A 6B 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
AVG MX 2MIN
DY MAX MIN AVG DEP HDD CDD WTR SNW DPTH SPD SPD DIR MIN PSBL S-S WX SPD DR
================================================== ==============================

1 54 36 45 9 20 0 0.00 0.0 0 13.4 26 300 M M 4 36 300
2 38 25 32 -4 33 0 T T 0 18.4 32 330 M M 5 40 330
3 34 22 28 -8 37 0 0.00 0.0 0 10.8 22 330 M M 2 30 330
4 41 21 31 -4 34 0 0.00 0.0 0 5.9 14 170 M M 3 16 170
5 43 28 36 1 29 0 T 0.0 0 3.6 12 160 M M 8 13 160
6 55 38 47 12 18 0 0.20 0.0 0 2.9 12 170 M M 8 1 13 170
7 69 46 58 23 7 0 0.00 0.0 0 8.4 13 180 M M 8 15 190
8 73 48 61 26 4 0 0.00 0.0 0 11.2 25 200 M M 6 31 200
9 68 47 58 23 7 0 0.00 0.0 0 11.9 24 290 M M 7 33 190
10 52 40 46 11 19 0 0.18 0.0 0 3.8 13 110 M M 10 1 14 110
11 59 43 51 16 14 0 0.15 0.0 0 4.5 20 350 M M 8 128 25 350
12 54 42 48 13 17 0 0.00 0.0 0 6.9 14 330 M M 7 16 330
13 49 36 43 8 22 0 0.03 0.0 0 6.9 14 110 M M 7 17 100
14 47 35 41 6 24 0 T T 0 8.4 24 310 M M 8 8 29 280
15 40 30 35 1 30 0 T T 0 9.0 26 290 M M 4 32 290
16 44 32 38 4 27 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.6 20 320 M M 6 28 320
17 39 34 37 3 28 0 0.75 1.3 0 6.2 13 320 M M 10 124 16 340
18 49 33 41 7 24 0 T 0.0 1 6.6 12 200 M M 8 18 15 330
19 42 36 39 5 26 0 T T 0 6.9 12 180 M M 10 15 180
20 37 19 28 -6 37 0 0.00 0.0 0 15.3 26 320 M M 3 35 330
21 32 18 25 -10 40 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.3 14 190 M M 1 18 330
22 42 26 34 -1 31 0 T 0.0 0 11.1 18 200 M M 9 22 210
23 48 30 39 4 26 0 0.00 0.0 0 9.2 28 330 M M 5 32 330
24 43 28 36 1 29 0 0.00 0.0 0 9.8 28 330 M M 6 33 320
25 36 22 29 -6 36 0 0.00 0.0 0 9.5 24 340 M M 2 30 340
26 40 29 35 0 30 0 0.00 0.0 0 5.1 12 90 M M 9 15 90
27 45 30 38 3 27 0 0.00 0.0 0 8.3 21 330 M M 6 25 330
28 47 33 40 5 25 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.1 15 340 M M 6 20 310
29 54 33 44 9 21 0 0.05 0.0 0 4.1 13 190 M M 9 20 190
30 56 36 46 11 19 0 0.01 0.0 0 15.4 30 300 M M 4 39 300
31 45 28 37 2 28 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.7 17 320 M M 4 22 320
================================================== ==============================
SM 1475 1004 769 0 1.37 1.3 263.2 M 193
================================================== ==============================
AV 47.6 32.4 8.5 FASTST PSBL % 6 MAX(MPH)
MISC ----> # 32 330 # 40 330
================================================== ==============================



January 2008 for Richmond, VA:
TEMPERATURE IN F: :PCPN: SNOW: WIND :SUNSHINE: SKY :PK WND
================================================== ==============================
1 2 3 4 5 6A 6B 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
AVG MX 2MIN
DY MAX MIN AVG DEP HDD CDD WTR SNW DPTH SPD SPD DIR MIN PSBL S-S WX SPD DR
================================================== ==============================

1 55 35 45 8 20 0 0.00 0.0 0 11.7 25 320 M M 1 32 320
2 37 27 32 -5 33 0 T T 0 16.1 29 350 M M 4 37 350
3 34 18 26 -11 39 0 0.00 0.0 0 9.1 25 360 M M 1 32 360
4 45 16 31 -6 34 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.4 18 250 M M 1 22 220
5 51 26 39 2 26 0 0.00 0.0 0 8.3 14 250 M M 7 17 240
6 66 39 53 16 12 0 T 0.0 0 7.9 16 250 M M 7 18 250
7 74 43 59 22 6 0 0.00 0.0 0 8.1 14 230 M M 6 16 230
8 71 48 60 24 5 0 0.00 0.0 0 10.5 26 230 M M 7 1 31 230
9 73 42 58 22 7 0 0.00 0.0 0 11.4 25 280 M M 7 30 240
10 54 39 47 11 18 0 0.04 0.0 0 4.6 12 120 M M 8 1 15 110
11 71 47 59 23 6 0 0.03 0.0 0 11.4 32 240 M M 9 1 44 240
12 55 39 47 11 18 0 0.00 0.0 0 5.9 12 20 M M 7 15 20
13 47 32 40 4 25 0 0.06 0.0 0 5.8 12 20 M M 7 18 15 360
14 49 34 42 6 23 0 0.00 0.0 0 8.6 18 300 M M 5 128 26 290
15 41 23 32 -4 33 0 0.00 0.0 0 9.7 31 310 M M 2 40 330
16 44 32 38 2 27 0 0.00 0.0 0 5.1 17 10 M M 6 M M
17 37 32 35 -1 30 0 0.60 T 0 6.9 15 340 M M 10 14 18 340
18 53 34 44 8 21 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.9 15 260 M M 8 1 20 280
19 44 32 38 2 27 0 0.11 0.8 1 4.4 12 80 M M 10 18 15 70
20 34 15 25 -11 40 0 T T 1 10.5 22 330 M M 4 1 29 320
21 34 12 23 -13 42 0 0.00 0.0 T 2.8 8 150 M M 0 8 10 150
22 45 21 33 -3 32 0 0.01 T 0 8.1 16 220 M M 9 4 20 240
23 49 29 39 3 26 0 0.00 0.0 0 3.3 10 50 M M 6 1 16 90
24 40 27 34 -2 31 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.8 23 10 M M 8 1 30 360
25 37 20 29 -7 36 0 0.00 0.0 0 7.1 23 10 M M 1 32 360
26 45 25 35 -1 30 0 0.00 0.0 0 2.7 10 230 M M 9 14 230
27 45 31 38 1 27 0 0.00 0.0 0 6.6 15 20 M M 9 20 340
28 50 30 40 3 25 0 0.00 0.0 0 5.5 16 330 M M 4 20 320
29 61 33 47 10 18 0 0.01 0.0 0 9.6 22 210 M M 9 28 220
30 57 32 45 8 20 0 0.10 0.0 0 12.0 29 310 M M 4 1 38 300
31 47 26 37 0 28 0 0.00 0.0 0 6.9 15 50 M M 4 18 50
================================================== ==============================
SM 1545 939 765 0 0.96 0.8 243.7 M 180
================================================== ==============================
AV 49.8 30.3 7.9 FASTST PSBL % 6 MAX(MPH)
MISC ----> # 32 240 # 44 240
================================================== ====================

By your information, how do you gather DC as milder when RIC is almost 3 degrees warmer, that means it warms up faster than DC? And DC's record lows on average between Dec-Feb are 6 degrees lower than RIC. Furthermore, why does richmond have less snow perciptiation per year?

Last, whenever I drive down 95 in march everything is a bit more green than DC. I think with all this evidence I have supplied proves DC is NOT milder than Richmond.