Advice needed: My "moving to NoVA" post. (Housing, commute, schools, etc.) (Arlington: real estate, 2013)
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I've been reading through this board quite extensively for the past few months since I'm anticipating a move to the NoVA area in mid-August of this year. I briefly visited the area during a DC trip in August of 2009, but it was restricted to the Orange Line stops closer to DC (Rosslyn to Ballston). Reading different posts on this board has given me some particular insight into certain issues that are important to us but we are looking for some personalized advice as our situation, like that of everyone else, is unique.
I'm 26 and my wife-to-be is 22. We're both graduating in May from our undergraduate studies at Michigan State University. I dual bachelor'ed in East Asian Studies and International Relations while she is receiving a bachelors in Hospitality Business.
Here are the factors that will influence where we would like to purchase our first home together:
- My new in-laws are considering helping us out with our purchase but there may be a couple options we consider. Either we will consider:
A) a smaller home for just the two of us with an extra bedroom in anticipation of a child or two in about 7 to 8 years, so this would need to be somewhere around a 2-bedroom+ in the 250k to 350k price range; or
B) a larger home for the two of us and anticipating her parents moving in with us sometime in the future (~ 5 years) and the child or two in about 7 to 8 years again, so this would need to be somewhere around a 3 or 4-bedroom in the 350k to 500k price range.
Whichever type of house we go with, there would need to be an office in addition to the bedrooms and we're currently undecided about a basement (which could be the space for the office or living space for her parents in order to free up a bedroom upstairs for an office if there isn't a space already). We don't mind living in an older home just as long as it is move-in ready and won't require immediate renovations or much extra expenses. It would also have to be at least a two-story (colonial?) style (my fiancee hates one-story ranch style houses).
- Concerning location, we don't know where we will be working yet (since we don't have jobs yet), so it makes it difficult to plan for the "ideal" location, so there are other factors that influence this part of our planning.
A) There is a good chance that my fiancee will be working somewhere that isn't easily accessible by public transportation, so we are planning on her using the one car that we will have between us. This means I will need to use public transportation, which hopefully should work out for us since I want to work in foreign policy or research, international development, etc., which I hope will place me in the heart of D.C. somewhere. So we're planning on buying somewhere I will have easy access to public transportation that will get me into the District. I wouldn't want to commute any longer than one hour each way from door to work. Walking distance to a rail station or bus stop is ideal but of course that means a place would be more expensive, so it's not practical to expect this. So, a short bus ride to the nearest rail station or bus stop that takes me to DC or to a rail station is acceptable, though not ideal.
B) Her parents are investment savvy people in an overseas market (they are not from the U.S.) and would like us to make a purchase that promises to be a good investment over time. Her parents have experience investing in properties near new development areas and rail lines, so we're thinking that something close to the new Silver Line (probably the 2013 section instead of the 2016 section) would be a good investment.
C) The final factor (but certainly not less important) relates to family friendliness, crime, and good schools. Since we are planning for children in the future, we would like to be situated around a certain environment that we envision. Firstly, her family is from a more homogeneous society where crime, gangs, and diversity are not really issues like they are here in the United States. In short, expectations are high for us to be in a safe, family friendly environment. Also, they are used to rigorous college preparation and K-12 programs in their country , so we need to be near the best schools: the best public schools, private schools, or Christian schools, etc. We read that Fairfax County is home to great schools while the McLean area looks particularly nice, as well as the Vienna and Reston areas.
Now that you know the details of our situation (I have read that the more details, the better!), we have some questions related to these issue areas:
A) Given the current public transit system (pre-Silver Line), what's the furthest I can get away from DC without going over about an hour commute from door to work? This is difficult without knowing where I would work but the Hill is the furthest I would consider working from a suburb in NoVA. From what I speculate based on my readings, parts of Reston/Herndon are probably as far as I could get away. Is this generally the case? Given our two different prices ranges (smaller home vs. larger home), what can we expect to find? If it makes any difference, the smaller home is more likely what we will end up doing instead of the larger home. A shorter commute and being closer to D.C. is definitely more desirable.
B) Concerning the Silver Line, is it as great of an investment to purchase a home near the future line as I'm thinking it will be? I know this will depend on proximity to the planned stations, purchasing near the 2013 section vs. the 2016 section, buying a townhome/condo vs. a detached home, etc. We are heavily leaning towards a detached home, if that helps (since this will most likely be a long-term residence). What kind of appreciation is reasonable to expect, if any?
C) Are the communities and schools north of the planned Silver Line route generally better than those south of it? So far, we really like what we read about in Herndon, Reston, Vienna, Tysons, McLean, etc., since they seem to offer a good mix of the factors that are important to us.
So there you have it, folks! Where can we expect to find the most of these factors align (price ranges, investment potential, community/schools)? And like I stated earlier, closer to DC is always better in order to cut down on my potential commute, among other factors. Like I said earlier, the smaller home is more likely what we will end up doing instead of the larger home. I tried my best to be as detailed as possible. If there are any questions, feel free to ask and I will answer.
If you're looking at Reston and Herndon as your standard, your price points would likely cover a 2BR condo and TH respectively, rather than a TH and SFH.
Your best chances of finding a SFH in your range in Fairfax County would seem to be in Burke and (West?) Springfield... maybe Chantilly or Centerville. Otherwise you're looking at more outer 'burbs like Loudoun, Prince William or Stafford counties. Even Loudoun's housing has gone up as more commuters from the nearby Dulles Corridor (which includes Reston/Herndon) and Tysons Corner are moving there. But I would definitely confirm where your jobs would be before signing a lease or mortgage as traffic here is horrendous.
Next to Fairfax County, Loudoun's schools have the best reputation in this region. Some consider Prince William to be a little spottier... and I don't know anything about Stafford. However, Northern Virginia as a whole tends to produce higher standardized test scores, if that matters to you, than most other areas in the country.
In essence, my layman's suggestion would be to either invest in a condo for the next five years until your parents and future kids arrive, prepare for the possibility of an hour-plus commute (which wouldn't be unusual here) or increase your price points by at least $100K.
Welcome to Northern Virginia. I'm not a real estate expert, but I'll share my opinions for what they are worth. See comments in bold below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulud
Hi all!
I've been reading through this board quite extensively for the past few months since I'm anticipating a move to the NoVA area in mid-August of this year. I briefly visited the area during a DC trip in August of 2009, but it was restricted to the Orange Line stops closer to DC (Rosslyn to Ballston). Reading different posts on this board has given me some particular insight into certain issues that are important to us but we are looking for some personalized advice as our situation, like that of everyone else, is unique.
I'm 26 and my wife-to-be is 22. We're both graduating in May from our undergraduate studies at Michigan State University. I dual bachelor'ed in East Asian Studies and International Relations while she is receiving a bachelors in Hospitality Business.
Here are the factors that will influence where we would like to purchase our first home together:
- My new in-laws are considering helping us out with our purchase but there may be a couple options we consider. Either we will consider:
A) a smaller home for just the two of us with an extra bedroom in anticipation of a child or two in about 7 to 8 years, so this would need to be somewhere around a 2-bedroom+ in the 250k to 350k price range; or
B) a larger home for the two of us and anticipating her parents moving in with us sometime in the future (~ 5 years) and the child or two in about 7 to 8 years again, so this would need to be somewhere around a 3 or 4-bedroom in the 350k to 500k price range.
I would go for option B. A lot of newly married couples end up having more children than they initially expect. Inlaws often move in as they get older. Also, if you need to move and sell the house, a 3-4 beroom home is easier to sell.
Whichever type of house we go with, there would need to be an office in addition to the bedrooms and we're currently undecided about a basement (which could be the space for the office or living space for her parents in order to free up a bedroom upstairs for an office if there isn't a space already).
Get the basement. Basements are significantly cooler in the summer. If you spend time down there you can save a lot of your energy bill.
We don't mind living in an older home just as long as it is move-in ready and won't require immediate renovations or much extra expenses. It would also have to be at least a two-story (colonial?) style (my fiancee hates one-story ranch style houses).
Most homes here are 2-story, so your fiancee is in luck.
- Concerning location, we don't know where we will be working yet (since we don't have jobs yet), so it makes it difficult to plan for the "ideal" location, so there are other factors that influence this part of our planning.
You need to find this out before making any other plans. Seriously, you want to know where the job is. It's not always possible to live near your job, but if you can it will make your life much better.
A) There is a good chance that my fiancee will be working somewhere that isn't easily accessible by public transportation, so we are planning on her using the one car that we will have between us. This means I will need to use public transportation, which hopefully should work out for us since I want to work in foreign policy or research, international development, etc., which I hope will place me in the heart of D.C. somewhere. So we're planning on buying somewhere I will have easy access to public transportation that will get me into the District. I wouldn't want to commute any longer than one hour each way from door to work. Walking distance to a rail station or bus stop is ideal but of course that means a place would be more expensive, so it's not practical to expect this. So, a short bus ride to the nearest rail station or bus stop that takes me to DC or to a rail station is acceptable, though not ideal.
Find out where the job is first. IMO, your job may not be in DC. These days more research jobs are in the Tech Corridor (Reston to Ashburn, and some parts of Leesburg). Many international development and foreign policy jobs are out there, too.
B) Her parents are investment savvy people in an overseas market (they are not from the U.S.) and would like us to make a purchase that promises to be a good investment over time. Her parents have experience investing in properties near new development areas and rail lines, so we're thinking that something close to the new Silver Line (probably the 2013 section instead of the 2016 section) would be a good investment.
I agree. I think any section along the Silver Line is a good investment.
C) The final factor (but certainly not less important) relates to family friendliness, crime, and good schools. Since we are planning for children in the future, we would like to be situated around a certain environment that we envision. Firstly, her family is from a more homogeneous society where crime, gangs, and diversity are not really issues like they are here in the United States. In short, expectations are high for us to be in a safe, family friendly environment. Also, they are used to rigorous college preparation and K-12 programs in their country , so we need to be near the best schools: the best public schools, private schools, or Christian schools, etc. We read that Fairfax County is home to great schools while the McLean area looks particularly nice, as well as the Vienna and Reston areas.
Crime and gangs are not really issues in the towns along the Silver Line. There are some mildly dicey areas in South Reston, downtown Herndon, and the area near the DMV in Sterling Park, but I don't consider those high crime areas. Also, the dicey areas are really small--just a few blocks away are extremely nice neighborhoods. If you want to know more about those specific areas we have lots of threads on them.
Other than those three areas the towns along the silver line have no problems. McLean is over-rated in my opinion but a lot of people like it there. Vienna may have some traffic issues for the next few years, but other than that it's a great community. Ashburn, IMO, is the place I'd recommend.
We have a lot of threads about schools. It's been many years since I had kids in school so I no longer have an opinion on which one is currently considered the best. In general the schools here are top notch. I've heard very good things about the schools in Eastern Loudoun lately. And, as you noted, Fairfax is well known for having good schools.
Now that you know the details of our situation (I have read that the more details, the better!), we have some questions related to these issue areas:
A) Given the current public transit system (pre-Silver Line), what's the furthest I can get away from DC without going over about an hour commute from door to work?
Ashburn, maybe Leesburg.
This is difficult without knowing where I would work but the Hill is the furthest I would consider working from a suburb in NoVA. From what I speculate based on my readings, parts of Reston/Herndon are probably as far as I could get away. Is this generally the case? Given our two different prices ranges (smaller home vs. larger home), what can we expect to find? If it makes any difference, the smaller home is more likely what we will end up doing instead of the larger home. A shorter commute and being closer to D.C. is definitely more desirable.
B) Concerning the Silver Line, is it as great of an investment to purchase a home near the future line as I'm thinking it will be? I know this will depend on proximity to the planned stations, purchasing near the 2013 section vs. the 2016 section, buying a townhome/condo vs. a detached home, etc. We are heavily leaning towards a detached home, if that helps (since this will most likely be a long-term residence). What kind of appreciation is reasonable to expect, if any?
Personally, I think it's a smart investment. But a realtor would be able to answer your questions better than I can.
C) Are the communities and schools north of the planned Silver Line route generally better than those south of it? So far, we really like what we read about in Herndon, Reston, Vienna, Tysons, McLean, etc., since they seem to offer a good mix of the factors that are important to us.
Interesting question. I never thought about it that way before, which I suppose means there really isn't a difference between the communities north and south of the silver line. North of the silver line you have prettier scenery because you're closer to the Potomac and in some neighborhoods you start having a few rolling hills.
So there you have it, folks! Where can we expect to find the most of these factors align (price ranges, investment potential, community/schools)? And like I stated earlier, closer to DC is always better in order to cut down on my potential commute, among other factors. Like I said earlier, the smaller home is more likely what we will end up doing instead of the larger home. I tried my best to be as detailed as possible. If there are any questions, feel free to ask and I will answer.
Not yet married and parents are moving in...woo hooo :-)))
Herdon and Reston would be my pick (and it is) as I work in downtown DC and use public transportation on regular basis and I drive.
Both Herndon and Reston have buses that go to West Falls Church Metro, from there you can access Orange line and travel east to Arlington or DC.
There are a lot of THs around Herndon-Monroe park and ride lot, which is Herndon, which eventually will be right next to the future metro stop - I would consider them...maybe.
But if you want kids, I would pick SFH, no less, because backyard and front yard give your child a place to play in a safe environment.
I would also say that 3 bedroom house would be an absolute minimum for you and your wife and one child. Forget the parents, will not not enough room in common areas, trust me, I have done it ;-)
If you or she wants parents - get something bigger, and that will require more $$$.
I agree that your price point is more for a condo in some of the neighborhoods that you're considering. McLean/Tysons/Vienna is not an inexpensive area, and a single-family house in rough condition, or one that's very small, such as some of the houses in Vienna Woods. Herndon/Reston are going to be tough as well, for a single-family that does not require remodeling/renovation, but you might find something in a split level/split foyer style house (no basement).
The silver line will attract new development to the area, but it's going to be increased density, since the areas are already built, not areas that have vast amounts of open land for new development. The silver line is not going to suddently spur a dramatic run-up in prices because the bus to WFC exists now, and the train will save a few minutes. So, a house that you buy now for $400k is not going to immediately increase to $700k by 2013 because the rail connection is open. Falls Church and parts of Arlington, however, will benefit more, though their prices are already higher, since bidirectional commuting on the Orange to Silver Lines will make it much more attractive for singles, and couples where one works Downtown and the other on the silver line, or those who work in Tysons and don't want to live in suburban settings.
Everything from Eastern Loudoun into the city is already established, so it's going to be difficult to find an area with new development opportunities in the region, unless you look to othere counties further away. However, as others have noted, move where you have the easiest commutes because the traffic congestion in this region is nothing to be minimized.
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I have to second normie's advice to find out the locations of your jobs first and foremost. That can have huge implications on both your and your fiance's commutes. If your fiance got a job around Ft. Belvoir or outside-of-beltway Alexandria, near Dulles would be one of the last places you would want to commute to and from.
Second, you may want to wait a year and rent before plunging into the housing market. Different neighborhoods have different feels, and you can't really know what area here is right for you until you spend substantial time here. I came from the midwest, and life in Northern Virginia was quite an adjustment. I think you'll find the same moving from East Lansing. Another year may also provide some clarity regarding the plans of your future in-laws. If you buy now expecting them to move in within a few years and then they make other retirement plans, you could find it difficult to sustain the house payments.
The silver line is not going to suddently spur a dramatic run-up in prices because the bus to WFC exists now, and the train will save a few minutes. So, a house that you buy now for $400k is not going to immediately increase to $700k by 2013 because the rail connection is open.
I partially disagree with you on this point. I disagree because I think the silver line will benefit nearby home values, but I agree that it might not be a dramatic increase. I definitely agree that the value of a house is not going to more than double just because of a train. Still, I think the silver line will affect the value of homes within walking distance.
Yes, there's a bus line in existence and that ought to be just as good. But to many people a bus does not have the same cachet as a train. IMO Ashburn home prices are going to benefit quite a bit from the silver line. But I guess only time will tell.
Wow, thanks for all the responses so quickly. I have a document that I've been filling out since I started researching on this board a few months ago, so I'll be adding your valuable input to it. Please let me respond to some of the points made here:
@Tone509
"But I would definitely confirm where your jobs would be before signing a lease or mortgage as traffic here is horrendous."
Others mentioned the same thing. Given our degree situation, my fiancee will definitely be able to find a job before we move out there, so we will wait until she has a secure job before getting serious about choosing an exact home, whether it be condo, TH, or SFH. I, on the other hand, have been told multiple times by advisers, alumni in the area, etc., that I most likely won't be able to find a secure job until I actually get out to the D.C. area, put the boots on the pavement, do some volunteering, interning, networking, etc. BA's just aren't as marketable as MA's in my field (international relations), or as marketable as BA's in other fields (hospitality, programming, etc.). So, our plan is to find out where she'll be working first, and then just try to find a spot close enough to public transportation that will allow me some flexibility in where I work.
"In essence, my layman's suggestion would be to either invest in a condo for the next five years until your parents and future kids arrive, prepare for the possibility of an hour-plus commute (which wouldn't be unusual here) or increase your price points by at least $100K."
If her parents do come, it wouldn't be until 5 years from when we move out there (visa/citizenship issues). Before we start seriously looking for a home, we will know whether they will be joining us then or not. Personally, the two of us are leaning towards not having them join us in our home but maybe instead seeing if they would like their own place if they do decide to come out here in the future, but ultimately it's up to them since it's their money. As for kids, we don't plan on starting until after about 7 years once we are already out there. The reason being is that I want to go to graduate school at GWU, but I won't be able to start for another three years from now (monster undergrad debt to start paying off), and the program would take about 3 years, and then we'd like another 1 year buffer until I can transition into a more secure, better paying job with my MA before my wife would be able to take time off for a child. Of course, kids can come at any time but with careful planning we really need to hold off on them for a while! You say we should invest in a condo for the next five years or so. Is it worth it to maybe start in a condo now and then sell when we are ready to have kids in about 6 or 7 years? I generally get the feeling that it's not worth buying if a couple plan to stay in a place for only a short while.
And thanks for the link, I'll be checking it out soon!
@normie
(concerning the furthest point from the Hill with an hour max commute): "Ashburn, maybe Leesburg."
Is Ashburn really only about an hour commute from door to work (on the Hill)? I got the impression that Herndon/Reston were probably the furthest I could look if I didn't want to go over an hour. Of course, this depends on whether I'm within walking distance of a bus that goes directly to D.C. or to the WFC metro or whether I need to catch a prior bus to get to THAT bus. Personally, since I'm trying to get a place close to the Silver Line, I'd like to be able to take advantage of the 2013 section (meaning the Reston stop) instead of waiting for the 2016 section (Herndon and beyond). Investment isn't my only concern about buying around the Silver Line... I want to ride that thing to cut down on commute time! I just wonder whether prices for the 2013 section have already been adjusted in comparison to the 2016 section where prices may not have been affected as much. If so, investment near the 2016 section will be better than around the 2013 (Reston) section. But I don't know the market in the area, so I'm just speculating. If we decide on the Reston/Herndon area for now, schools might not even matter if we start small and move before our kids are old enough to start pre-Kindergarten (which is hopefully like 11 years from now if we plan correctly). ~ 10 years+ is definitely enough time to beat the renting vs. buying price curve, right? This is where the Silver Line investment comes into play. Would a 2-br condo or TH near the Reston/Herndon area (somewhere between the 2013 and 2016 sections) appreciate well enough in ~ 10 years? Only time will tell, I guess...
@703
"Not yet married and parents are moving in...woo hooo."
We are getting married this July 25th before we move out to NoVA together :-)
"Herdon and Reston would be my pick (and it is) as I work in downtown DC and use public transportation on regular basis and I drive."
May I ask, how long is your commute and of what route does it consist? (Which buses/trains do you take exactly? What do you do door to work?)
"There are a lot of THs around Herndon-Monroe park and ride lot, which is Herndon, which eventually will be right next to the future metro stop - I would consider them...maybe."
I like this idea. I will look more into 2-br TH's in the area between the Herndon and Reston P&R lots. Thanks!
"But if you want kids, I would pick SFH, no less, because backyard and front yard give your child a place to play in a safe environment."
I'm hoping that a 2-br TH might suffice until sometime after our first child and before our second child (ideally that would be 7-8 years from now). Hopefully a 2-br TH near the Silver Line in the Reston/Herndon area will appreciate enough by then to sell and move into something larger and maybe a little closer...
@bmwguydc
I appreciate the insight into investment and housing values. If I only considered short-term (5 to 10 year) investment potential near the Silver Line, what would be a better purchase: a smaller TH or a mid-size SFH? If I put aside the issue of her parents coming and kids in the future, her parents might be willing to help us with the more expensive mid-size SFH (vs. the smaller TH) if the investment potential is worth it.
"Second, you may want to wait a year and rent before plunging into the housing market. Different neighborhoods have different feels, and you can't really know what area here is right for you until you spend substantial time here. I came from the midwest, and life in Northern Virginia was quite an adjustment. I think you'll find the same moving from East Lansing. Another year may also provide some clarity regarding the plans of your future in-laws. If you buy now expecting them to move in within a few years and then they make other retirement plans, you could find it difficult to sustain the house payments."
Initially, we were planning on renting for about 6 or 7 years until I was able to pay off debt for a few years, go to grad school at GWU for a few years, then find a better paying job. It's actually her parents who started talking to us about them helping us buy a home since they view renting as wasting money. And regarding the future in-laws, they plan to let us know what they want to do (5 years in the future) before we get serious about purchasing a home in NoVA. Even if their plans do change in the future after we make a purchase, they wouldn't stick us with the payments since they would consider the house to be their investment. I do appreciate your words though, since they are valuable to consider. I think too many young people get themselves in over their heads and we are only around our mid-20s. I already have a monster undergrad debt, so I don't need to be stranded on a massive mortgage that I can't afford!
@normie
"IMO Ashburn home prices are going to benefit quite a bit from the silver line. But I guess only time will tell."
So Ashburn might be the best investment area, huh? Are you thinking short-term (5 to 10 years) or longer term when comparing it to other areas? If we consider investment potential only, we might consider Ashburn, but I'm really concerned with the commute to somewhere as far as the Hill. I don't really wanna be over an hour door to work, so that's why somewhere closer (Reston/Herndon or closer) is more appealing. Plus, I was really looking forward to utilizing that Silver Line in 2013! But we'll consider all important factors before making a purchase.
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