Sunrail ridership down, Looks like an Epic Fail (Orlando, Winter Park: hotel, train)

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by OrlFlaUsa

I can gather from all of your humdrum posts that you wanted 2 things done differently with SunRail:

1. You wanted the route to go essentially from OIA to I-Drive/Universal to Disney more or less so the tourist would essentially use the system and fund it (sorta). Well I'm so glad you weren't in charge or else we would have used tax dollars to build a public transit system that is going to be built with 100% private funds. So essentially the good leadership we had chose a route that would serve the people who call Orlando home and would also help to change development patterns as this area grows.

2. You tout BRT as a better example. Well who's to say Lynx won't do just that and tie some flexible BRT routes into stations like Maitland, or Sand Lake that could be very useful if they just reached a mile or two in other directions. It's already happening with the expansion of the Lymmo in downtown. BRT is a great alternative to costly light rail for covering small to medium distances around a certain area (ie the attractions, downtown, perhaps 436 in Altamonte, or even 46 in Sanford, but nobody would build a BRT commuter system from Deland to DT Orlando, it just doesn't make sense for moving large amounts of people over such vast distances, but it can be used to bridge the gap.

Yes and yes, which if you read what you actually posted makes sense.

Orlando relies on tourism very heavily for revenue and without it would be just another bump in the road. Of course the tourist trade would have supported it and probably even make it profitable, while giving residents better traffic conditions for return on their precious tax dollars...which prying from local taxpayer fingers has been notoriously tedious and is the reason why transit and highway improvements are a good 20 years behind where it should be. The "good leadership" as you put it with (Orlando's mayor leading the charge) seemingly has a major case of penis envy and are throwing lots of dollars into big boy toys such as commuter trains and unneeded additional sports venues.

BRT is and would have been a better example and to say "who says Lynx won't do that"...they haven't up until now and it appears to have not entered the conversation. Lymmo expansion in Downtown Orlando where 10% of the metro population works serves what? I'll tell you what, a shiny example of how the area is supposed to be so advanced when visitors arrive and for those select few living/working there. It's not doing much of anything else for the remaining 2 million or so residents in the area. And of course if one had any sense a BRT line wouldn't have been built along I-4 from Deland to Downtown Orlando since a relative few work in Downtown Orlando and/or work along the I-4 corridor. But oh wait, we knew that and built an expensive commuter rail line anyway...

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by BlackPeach2

Im no logistics guru, but it seems the way do any transit system is to establish stations where people go, where people live and where people work. Im a huge supporter of mass transit, but some metros make it easy for the anti rail crowd to be anti rail.

Exactly. Clearly through the way this area evolved (helter skelter sprawl) that something as organized as rail transit would not be effective without considerable investment in varying lines/stations and increased bus service to/from those stations along feeder routes. I'm a huge supporter of transit as well (I lived carless for nearly the 20 years prior to moving back to FL) and could see the writing on the wall which is why some other option such as the oft-mentioned BRT would have been the intelligent option, something this area isn't known for in terms of planning and development it would seem given the current state of affairs.

[Macgregorsailor51]

And Your Professional Back Ground or Factual Proof of this is what?????

Originally Posted by WithDisp

I know it will increase the development in the areas along the lines- just know the costs to expand to the places it should have served in the first place will each cost as much as the entirety of the system.

[WithDisp]

Originally Posted by Macgregorsailor51

And Your Professional Back Ground or Factual Proof of this is what?????

Read through SunRail's own DOT Public Development records.
Transit Oriented Development Sketchbook - SunRail Corporate

Ontop of that, it's clear from the state and the transit system itself that the new track to BE built for Phase 2 in no-mans-land is stopped up on funding. The Airport Spoke which is merely 5 miles will cost as much as the CSX line acquisition.


I'm not a transit expert- and I don't need to be. I'm not playing armchair quarterbacking either.
This has, from day one, been evidently an idea that benefited a small group of people at the cost of public taxpayers of whom which the state and agencies are accountable to.

Fools on here claim SunRail will pick up if we expand it to nights, and weekends, and holidays, and better scheduling, etc, etc, etc. The #8 Lynx Bus more than doubles SunRails daily ridership... because it RUNS places people actually need transit to get to. That's what will 'fix' SunRail, but that's something that could have been in place from day 1.

[PDF]

Originally Posted by WithDisp

Ontop of that, it's clear from the state and the transit system itself that the new track to BE built for Phase 2 in no-mans-land is stopped up on funding. The Airport Spoke which is merely 5 miles will cost as much as the CSX line acquisition.

Except they are officially getting the funding. So it's a go.

[WithDisp]

Originally Posted by PDF

Except they are officially getting the funding. So it's a go.

Yes, while held up the SunRail expansion will Continue. I do think Phase 2 is valuable to the project, you are now spanning a distance that isn't/wasn't worth driving... I can only hope fares will reflect the cost and distance of the project.

If the ridership is equivalent to SunRail Phase 1, the recovery will quite likely drop to the lowest of any Metro System in the USA due to the cost of the operation.

[IAm_FloridaBorn]

Originally Posted by WithDisp

Read through SunRail's own DOT Public Development records.
Transit Oriented Development Sketchbook - SunRail Corporate

Ontop of that, it's clear from the state and the transit system itself that the new track to BE built for Phase 2 in no-mans-land is stopped up on funding. The Airport Spoke which is merely 5 miles will cost as much as the CSX line acquisition.


I'm not a transit expert- and I don't need to be. I'm not playing armchair quarterbacking either.
This has, from day one, been evidently an idea that benefited a small group of people at the cost of public taxpayers of whom which the state and agencies are accountable to.

Fools on here claim SunRail will pick up if we expand it to nights, and weekends, and holidays, and better scheduling, etc, etc, etc. The #8 Lynx Bus more than doubles SunRails daily ridership... because it RUNS places people actually need transit to get to. That's what will 'fix' SunRail, but that's something that could have been in place from day 1.

I use to ride Link 8. That bus often runs in doubles and triples packed. 12-15 minute head ways as well (Sometimes quicker). That bus uns from downtown Orlando down OBT, trough Little Haiti, down oak ridge, down ALL OF INTERNATIONAL DRIVE passing and or connecting too more than 15 other bus routes. Which is why we need a ligt rail from downtown to the tourist corridor.

Orlando built a commuter rail for commuters, except a percentage "Commuters" are tourist and people heading the opposite direction of downtown. I Think SunRail is a nice addition but not a problem solver.

Phase 2 will greatly increase ridership for the simple fact people in Deltona and Poinciana aren't going to be wit the I4 BS.

At the same time, downtown Orlando may benefit more with apartment towers going up because people would still not rather catch a train but walk to work or have a shorter drive. Reality, many people won't give their vehicles up. Some will and some won't have a choice, but most won't unless connections are excellent in which they are not .

Between Lockheed, Disney, Universal and International Drive itself, ANY rail line connecting that area and downtown would probably always be in the black.

[annerk]

Originally Posted by JMatl

And? Do you have any idea how much roads cost taxpayers? Are they considered a success?

Your argument is weak, and extremely short-sighted. Public Transit is just that - public.

Just like roads that aren't tolled. Public infrastructure isn't supposed to be profitable, hence the word Public.

The FTA has a formula for how much they give various areas for mass transit. It's very, very complicated and has to do with the number and demographics of residents; if the area is urbanized, suburban, or rural; the existence of a transit authority (which determines who controls the cash); and on and on. The average farebox recovery for non-paratransit, non-tribal transit, surface transit in an urbanized area is 43%. The FTA takes a critical look at any public transit operating at under a 30% farebox recovery and will generally withhold Capital funding and reduce operational funding to organizations which do not meet their goals.

In all honesty the abysmal farebox recovery seen for Sunrail given the demographics of the area that it serves could have a negative impact on all transit funding for the area, including Lynx and VoTran. I expect that the FTA will tell SunRail to raise their fares or face massive operating funding cuts. The way they are going right now they will not be eligible for state of good repair or other capital funding when they have their tri-annual in 2017.

[0nyxStation]

Originally Posted by PDF

Except they are officially getting the funding. So it's a go.

interesting

[JMatl]

Originally Posted by annerk

The FTA has a formula for how much they give various areas for mass transit. It's very, very complicated and has to do with the number and demographics of residents; if the area is urbanized, suburban, or rural; the existence of a transit authority (which determines who controls the cash); and on and on. The average farebox recovery for non-paratransit, non-tribal transit, surface transit in an urbanized area is 43%. The FTA takes a critical look at any public transit operating at under a 30% farebox recovery and will generally withhold Capital funding and reduce operational funding to organizations which do not meet their goals.

In all honesty the abysmal farebox recovery seen for Sunrail given the demographics of the area that it serves could have a negative impact on all transit funding for the area, including Lynx and VoTran. I expect that the FTA will tell SunRail to raise their fares or face massive operating funding cuts. The way they are going right now they will not be eligible for state of good repair or other capital funding when they have their tri-annual in 2017.

Damn good answer, annerk. I really want it to succeed, and admit that I'm biased.