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He and she are not about the external genitalia alone since we use the terms with children who have not gone through puberty yet. I am relatively certain you assign he or she to children without first looking in their underwear. Since you are doing that it isnt about their physical characteristics since children lack sexual dimorphism in every way except their genitals. As a society other characteristics are associated with those pronouns all the time. And those other characteristics are not SEX but GENDER. Therefore the he/she thing is at least equally about GENDER as it is about sex.
Are you crazy?
He or she SO HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH external genitalia.
Its not like once you hit puberty THEN you magically grow a penis or vagina, it's there from the day you are born.
Actually male fetuses are EXTERNALLY female until about 2-3 months.
Irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714
You are deducing that "he" is a prepubescent male based on GENDER characteristics, how he dresses, his name, and the use of the pronoun HE. Not based on his physical characteristics. Thus supporting the idea that he/she are GENDER constructs as much if not more so than a function of their sex.
Not at all. My deduction may be one thing, but the reality may be another. If I figure a girl for a boy, I'm wrong on that. She's still a girl, whether she's recognized as one or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714
My daughter is multiracial, she has told me that she frequently "doesn't feel white", despite being more caucasian than anything else. I am not really sure what that meansm being caucasian myself, but I have enough empathy to recognize that many people have experiences different than my own.
Well of course. I do, too. But that's in a general sense. When someone says they don't "feel white" or "feel like a woman", it's only fair to ask "What do you mean?", as I've been doing here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714
If we put you through gender re-assignment, gave you a makeover and put you in a pretty dress you likely would also not "feel like a woman". Maybe you cannot imagine it but that does not mean that Parallels feelings are any less valid.
Not assuming they aren't valid, just questioning how they might be.
And I don't ever "feel like" a man, either. I'm just aware of the fact that I'm male, but only when the subject is brought up. Otherwise, I just feel like myself.
Are you crazy?
He or she SO HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH external genitalia.
Its not like once you hit puberty THEN you magically grow a penis or vagina, it's there from the day you are born.
Before you question her sanity (or whatever that first question meant) please go back and re-read her post.
Either you mis-read her post or you do not understand what she said. Or you do not know what "sexual dimorphism" means. Give special notice to her use of the word "alone".
Last edited by DewDropInn; 05-02-2012 at 07:55 PM..
No, let me explain. We call a little boy a boy even without proof of his sex because we are deducing that he is a little boy. That some might get it wrong every now and then doesn't make a boy a "she" or a girl a "he". It just means a mistake was made.
All this was meant to adress the argument, "But I don't feel like a woman". I've been asking for an explanation of that, because I don't see how anyone could "feel like" either.
(I have no idea what's up with the tiny font and I can't seem to fix it)
What are you deducing this based on? If you see a child playing with a toy dump truck in a sandbox and wearing overalls...what gender would you deduce that child to be? Why? Could it be because you have associations and expectations about gender? What if the child was playing with a dump truck while wearing a dress and with long hair? Would you deduce the child to be female? Would you have any thoughts about the parenting if you found out the child actually was male?
As for describing a feeling....describe sadness. Describe joy. They just feel like what they are, right? I can't describe what it is to feel agendered.
But I do know I've felt like this since I was very young, well before I had the words to describe it. I know that the associations and expectations that people had about me because of my biological sex didn't match how I felt, and the expectations and associations they carried about the male gender didn't match either. The expectations and associations I carried about the male and female genders didn't match.
That's how it is with many people who are differently gendered. We grow up feeling just off center, and sometimes we don't understand why for a very long time because no one has given us the words. For me, finding the words wasn't a big thing...it was more "AH! Of course" and then on about my day. For others, it's huge. Gay and transgendered youth have a much higher suicide rate than their heterosexual typically gendered counterparts. That isn't because being gay or transgendered is automatically paired with depression. It's because of the associations we have about gender, and what it means to be a he or a she. People...even good, loving people...can go on the attack when the gender lines are skewed or crossed. I'm better off when it comes to these things because most people don't perceive being agendered as a threat...it's just weird. Being asexual is even weirder (and being an a-romantic asexual is extra super weird...I'm a unicorn!) But all my life I'd have people telling me that how I feel is not how I feel...that I'll change my mind. I was told that for the first time when I was five and said I was never getting married, and it hasn't stopped since.
You want to pretend that gender doesn't influence anything about your life, but it does. It has meaning, and it carries weight. You do feel like a man...because you are one. You don't think about it because you don't need to. But there are things that happened in your life because you are a man and things that didn't happen because you aren't a woman. If there were no associations and expectations with gender, you would be asking everyone what they are anyway, because you would have no assumptions. You would never see a person wearing a dress and think 'that's a woman'
At the same time, being a man isn't all that you are. Depending on the person, it may be a very large part of your identity or a very small part. Being agendered isn't all that I am...I don't really think about it in daily life either. But for both of us, the people around us modify their behavior based on the assumptions they make, and those assumptions may be large or small depending on how much gender plays into their own identity. That doesn't make them sexist. It makes them social animals.
What are you deducing this based on? If you see a child playing with a toy dump truck in a sandbox and wearing overalls...what gender would you deduce that child to be? Why? Could it be because you have associations and expectations about gender? What if the child was playing with a dump truck while wearing a dress and with long hair? Would you deduce the child to be female? Would you have any thoughts about the parenting if you found out the child actually was male?
Last question, no. And sure, I have associations (not expectations) concerning what boys typically look like and what girls typically look like. Doesn't mean there's any judgment there. But things are this way for a reason. Many people (probably most) find it beneficial to know the gender/sex of a person without having to be so rude as to ask. Perhaps it isn't too relevant with kids, but for adults it can make the whole dating game that much easier! And just like with everything else, kids learn this kinda stuff before it's actually needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParallelJJCat
As for describing a feeling....describe sadness. Describe joy. They just feel like what they are, right? I can't describe what it is to feel agendered.
As I said, how do you know that's what you feel? With joy, you know you feel joy because you've experienced the absence of it as well as sadness, fear, anger, etc. For all you know, you and I feel the exact same way; you just interpret it differently.
I feel like a woman...ask my husband .
My husband, he feels like a man .
I have three boys...wanna know how I know? Because they were all born with a penis, not a vagina. My two oldest boys have longer hair and yes they have been called "she" even though they are wearing boy clothes. Does it bother them? nope. They just crack up everytime. I do too. People just take things to seriously sometimes.
Physically you are born male or female, in most cases anyway. PJJ I'm sad you are conflicted but physically you are female and that is what the point is here, not your mental state.
We do use the word "hen" in our language...its a bird. maybe "it" would be better?
Why? Because it completely shows that pronouns are used irrespective of genitalia thus proving that the only thing determining use of he/she is external genitalia?
Thought so.
Quote:
Not at all. My deduction may be one thing, but the reality may be another. If I figure a girl for a boy, I'm wrong on that. She's still a girl, whether she's recognized as one or not.
So now we are moving the goal posts from gender specific pronoun to the actual sex of people? I never claimed remotely that sex is a function of what you call someone. Beyond bizarre truly.
What I am saying and you appear to be unable to comprehend, is that the use of pronouns, especially on prepubescent children, is a function of GENDER more than actual sex or external genitalia. Their gender is as much identified by their clothes, hair, etc and that cues your use of pronoun NOT their genitals.
Quote:
Well of course. I do, too. But that's in a general sense. When someone says they don't "feel white" or "feel like a woman", it's only fair to ask "What do you mean?", as I've been doing here...
And its been explained. You just refuse to except that explanation or are incapable of understanding it. And then you just keep refusing that gender is separate from sex because you don't understand it. That is like a color blind person claiming colors do not exist because they cannot see them.
Quote:
Not assuming they aren't valid, just questioning how they might be.
And I don't ever "feel like" a man, either. I'm just aware of the fact that I'm male, but only when the subject is brought up. Otherwise, I just feel like myself.
Because you fit the societal norm for what is average. People only feel out of place when they do not fit into the societal norm. Your "maleness" is an innate part or your self description because you feel what the society perceives to be male. Obviously, PJJ does not feel that way. That should be the end of the story but you won't let it be.
And once more for the record, MANY languages do not use gender specifics at all or pronouns in particular. It only appears to be the norm because it is the culture in which you were raised. If you were with language that does not use those gender specific words than the idea of using a gender neutral word to designate people would not be "weird" at all.
As I said, how do you know that's what you feel? With joy, you know you feel joy because you've experienced the absence of it as well as sadness, fear, anger, etc. For all you know, you and I feel the exact same way; you just interpret it differently.
This is the part that is so arrogant it actually makes me sorta mad.
Who are you to say her feelings are not real? Just because you have never had them?
I never knew real grief until my parents died but years before I never told my best friend that what she was feeling (when her dad died) wasn't real, or was just the same feeling I had when my fish died. Because I knew even as a preteen, that my experience was not the same as everyone elses.
Incredibly insensitive and arrogant to be telling that PJJs doesnt know what she feels.
(I have no idea what's up with the tiny font and I can't seem to fix it)
What are you deducing this based on? If you see a child playing with a toy dump truck in a sandbox and wearing overalls...what gender would you deduce that child to be? Why? Could it be because you have associations and expectations about gender? What if the child was playing with a dump truck while wearing a dress and with long hair? Would you deduce the child to be female? Would you have any thoughts about the parenting if you found out the child actually was male?
As for describing a feeling....describe sadness. Describe joy. They just feel like what they are, right? I can't describe what it is to feel agendered.
But I do know I've felt like this since I was very young, well before I had the words to describe it. I know that the associations and expectations that people had about me because of my biological sex didn't match how I felt, and the expectations and associations they carried about the male gender didn't match either. The expectations and associations I carried about the male and female genders didn't match.
That's how it is with many people who are differently gendered. We grow up feeling just off center, and sometimes we don't understand why for a very long time because no one has given us the words. For me, finding the words wasn't a big thing...it was more "AH! Of course" and then on about my day. For others, it's huge. Gay and transgendered youth have a much higher suicide rate than their heterosexual typically gendered counterparts. That isn't because being gay or transgendered is automatically paired with depression. It's because of the associations we have about gender, and what it means to be a he or a she. People...even good, loving people...can go on the attack when the gender lines are skewed or crossed. I'm better off when it comes to these things because most people don't perceive being agendered as a threat...it's just weird. Being asexual is even weirder (and being an a-romantic asexual is extra super weird...I'm a unicorn!) But all my life I'd have people telling me that how I feel is not how I feel...that I'll change my mind. I was told that for the first time when I was five and said I was never getting married, and it hasn't stopped since.
You want to pretend that gender doesn't influence anything about your life, but it does. It has meaning, and it carries weight. You do feel like a man...because you are one. You don't think about it because you don't need to. But there are things that happened in your life because you are a man and things that didn't happen because you aren't a woman. If there were no associations and expectations with gender, you would be asking everyone what they are anyway, because you would have no assumptions. You would never see a person wearing a dress and think 'that's a woman'
At the same time, being a man isn't all that you are. Depending on the person, it may be a very large part of your identity or a very small part. Being agendered isn't all that I am...I don't really think about it in daily life either. But for both of us, the people around us modify their behavior based on the assumptions they make, and those assumptions may be large or small depending on how much gender plays into their own identity. That doesn't make them sexist. It makes them social animals.
Thanks for sharing this, it's very enlightening.
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