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That's because you look at it a completely different way. We look at it as looking after the souls of the children and giving the a proper upbringing.
Is it a christian church? Not sure that it matters though since I don't know of any churches where showing up to service does a whit of good to the soul. My recollection of my years and years Catholic school, youth group, church services was that Jesus/God actually wanted your heart and soul involved and into it.
Not that I think it is a huge deal, it just seems entirely pointless to me. If Jesus really did bring a "new law" with him, then attendance seems useless to me.
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Do you make you children go on family vacations? That's far more time intensive than one hour a week of church, and it has nothing to do with power and control.
I wonder when the last time was anyone had to make their children go on vacation.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
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Originally Posted by monumentus
It is so easy to find people who are in disagreement and throw words like "sneer" at them in order to dismiss their position on the matter. The fact is however that there is more than sneering going on here. There is a genuine concern that it is simply the wrong thing to do to try and force your identity on to others - let alone your own children.
The most important word in your above text is the 10th one. "Their". It is "Their" identity and many people feel that it is the wrong thing to do to try and mould your own children into carbon compies of yourself. They are not their parents. They are their own individuals. And forcing a child to continue on visiting your club houses - when they have expressed an unwillingness to do so - is poor form - and will not be made otherwise simply by throwing the word "sneer" around like a linguistic mace.
Exactly. I think pushing your religion on your children is just as wrong as pushing your desired profession on your children. The more you say "do this" to kids, the higher likelihood they will resent "that" no matter what it is.
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Then play the worlds smallest violin for them. The simple fact is that our children will be individuals and we should all go into parenthood realizing that. If we do not then it is our fault and no one elses and I have little to no sympathy for them. Whether they reject their religion - support an opposing football team - turn to a different sexual orientation - vote for a different political party or even completely different political idealogy - well then bully for them. That is what comes with parenthood - and that is what comes with the wonderous diversity that is part and parcel of the human species. Rather than moping around with a "woe is me - my child has become their own person" attitude I would recommend instead a celebration that your child is finding their own path in life.
The problem with some of these parents is that some believe that their children will go to "hell" for rejecting their religious beliefs. That is where it becomes complicated.
Church was "mandated" until I was probably around 13. At that point, I mostly went for the sake of my mother who is fairly devout. I don't think I gained anything out of going to church. She never "forced me" to go past 13. It was just something I did for her.
I feel that was a good approach. I don't go to church anymore. Some people might say, "See! If you don't mandate it, then they don't go!" But then, what is really the goal? Does my merely stepping foot into church and saying the prayers while yearning to be somewhere, anywhere else increase my odds of supposed salvation? I don't think so. Actions speak louder than my empty words being droned out in a church by a hundred other people.
I was raised Catholic, went to CCD, attended Mass on all the days of obligation as well as weekly (usually the "hangover Mass"--Saturdays at 5:30pm--a pre-emptive strike.) We had to go until we were 18. I never resented it a ton, although a lot of the Catholic dogma makes me eyeroll.
I have two daughters, whom we raised Episcopalian. One stopped attending when she was 17, the other (16) still attends with us and doesn't put up much of a fight. I always felt our role as parents was to introduce our children to the religion we chose to follow, and let them make their own decisions from there.
I don't get parents who don't understand that you can't force anyone to believe what you want them to. You can force them to go through the motions, but at a certain point--and I believe it's in the teen years--you should respect their decision to choose. I feel we've done a good job giving our children a religious foundation and they have seen firsthand the benefits of belonging to a religious community. Whether they choose to follow where we've led or a different path, I feel we've fulfilled our responsibility. When our oldest decided to stop going, she decided she was an atheist, then a Wiccan, then an omnitheist. Some of this was trying to push our buttons, to see how much we'd tolerate (and we tolerated it all--the fun teenage years!) Maybe she stopped going because she's too lazy, maybe some of the issues she's had made her feel more distant from God--whatever. It's her decision to make. Hopefully one day she'll return to some kind of spiritual home. Her father and I don't care what it is. (I believe saying Christianity is the only way puts God in a box, but that's a discussion for another forum.)
I hope by not ramming our beliefs down her throat, we have cleared the path for her to return, if she chooses.
The problem with some of these parents is that some believe that their children will go to "hell" for rejecting their religious beliefs. That is where it becomes complicated.
It is a conundrum, to be sure. But making your kids GO to church really is not going to stop them from rejecting religious beliefs. So while it causes emotional difficulty for the parents, from a practical point of view, it still makes little sense. But then, lots of people make choices from their emotions, which I have never thought was the best plan.
Getting kids and the whole family to church can be quite a stressful undertaking. I had a friend who stated "We lose more religion getting out the door for church than we ever gain by going there". Actually she announced that in adult summer school after rushing in the door late. Most of us could relate.
We raised our first two in a very active Methodist church. The younger 2 have rarely been. We, as parents, have changed and evolved to the point we see little value in it and even some harm.
Church is just something that our family does, but we're not legalistic about it. If someone occasionally wants to stay home, that's fine. If we're tired one Sunday and decide not to go, no big deal. The kids like the youth program and actually choose to go to the Wednesday night activities, which my husband and I do not attend. That said, if they want to try out another church, I'm completely open to that. We have visited other churches out of curiosity. So we don't "make" them go, but it's encouraged. If one of them said that they didn't believe what was being taught, then we'd figure something out... I do think it's important to be part of some type of spiritual community, so we could go church-shopping if they were amenable to that.
It is so easy to find people who are in disagreement and throw words like "sneer" at them in order to dismiss their position on the matter. The fact is however that there is more than sneering going on here. There is a genuine concern that it is simply the wrong thing to do to try and force your identity on to others - let alone your own children.
The most important word in your above text is the 10th one. "Their". It is "Their" identity and many people feel that it is the wrong thing to do to try and mould your own children into carbon compies of yourself. They are not their parents. They are their own individuals. And forcing a child to continue on visiting your club houses - when they have expressed an unwillingness to do so - is poor form - and will not be made otherwise simply by throwing the word "sneer" around like a linguistic mace.
While I will concede that "sneer" perhaps wasn't the best word choice, it's obvious from your response that you didn't read the rest of my post or it would be clear to you that I am not at all in disagreement with the folks who say that forcing an adolescent into religion is not the best course of action. What I am saying is that it sometimes IS the way it is, very deeply for certain people, and that our own POVs should not mean that we easily dismiss THEM.
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Originally Posted by monumentus
Then play the worlds smallest violin for them. The simple fact is that our children will be individuals and we should all go into parenthood realizing that. If we do not then it is our fault and no one elses and I have little to no sympathy for them. Whether they reject their religion - support an opposing football team - turn to a different sexual orientation - vote for a different political party or even completely different political idealogy - well then bully for them. That is what comes with parenthood - and that is what comes with the wonderous diversity that is part and parcel of the human species. Rather than moping around with a "woe is me - my child has become their own person" attitude I would recommend instead a celebration that your child is finding their own path in life.
And again, my post is excruciatingly clear that I not only agree with this but that it is exactly reflective of how I raised my own kid.
Let me give you an easy example. On the Judaism forum there is an Orthodox poster who does not allow his children to associate with children outside his religion--not even other Jewish children if they are not Orthodox. If this man's kid decided, at 15, that he was no longer going to go to temple or observe Shabbos (or worse, became a "Jew for Jesus"!), it would be a little more devastating than just your average kid not wanting to go to church anymore. Their very identity as a family and as part of a particular community would be compromised. This dynamic also exists in other families in other religions to varying degrees. Sure, we who don't think that way can say, "TFB, your kid is his own person, let him go," but I personally would have sympathy for a parent who is struggling with a situation like that even though theirs is not my personal point of view.
What I am saying is that it sometimes IS the way it is, very deeply for certain people, and that our own POVs should not mean that we easily dismiss THEM.
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When a child reaches the age of 13-14 and tells their parent that they don't want to attend church every Sunday should the teenager be mandated to go?
From the OP. I took the thread to mean what are the relative merits of this action not how much do we want to provide validation for the parents that feel bad. For my part, I do feel badly for them.
Last edited by somebodynew; 06-11-2013 at 08:31 AM..
Raise your kids to be good, kind, responsible and giving. You don't need a church for that. I guess I'm just so turned off by organized religion these days I can't go back to any church. Now I do take my kids to volunteer/charitable things that are sponsored by churches but I can't take the constant asking for money for new buildings, the televangelists, the abuse scandals and cover ups. There is bad in anything organized but to me organized religion seems to have a monopoly.
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