Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Celebrating Memorial Day!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-20-2015, 08:12 AM
 
Location: here
24,873 posts, read 36,260,240 times
Reputation: 32732

Advertisements

Re aquariums, real aquariums like Monterey Bay, are like zoos. They are about protection and conservation. Sea world... More like the circus in my book. More about entertainment.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-20-2015, 09:20 AM
 
13,981 posts, read 26,029,292 times
Reputation: 39930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat View Post
Re aquariums, real aquariums like Monterey Bay, are like zoos. They are about protection and conservation. Sea world... More like the circus in my book. More about entertainment.
Unfortunately, some real aquariums, like in Atlanta, aren't content with protection and conservation. They add dolphin shows to appeal to the masses.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 09:32 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 4,015,835 times
Reputation: 8796
I take my son to the zoos and aquariums that don't have bad reputations or convictions for animal cruelty, but I don't love it. We'll go to the DC zoo once in a while, but never to Reston, and we go to the Baltimore aquarium, although we never went to the dolphin show (which they don't have anymore). I think I'm being pretty reasonable, but even just these few restrictions cause my relatives to roll their eyes and act like I'm a bad mother.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 11:42 AM
 
1,002 posts, read 1,975,925 times
Reputation: 1716
I have a close family member who is a marine biologist with an advanced degree. With few jobs in academia due to the sequester a few years ago, many of them have been doing internships at zoos and aquariums to explore the possibilities. And their responses are overwhelmingly NO, not just NO, but HE** NO. The only thing any of them would consider working with are small fish and invertebrate collections.

Keeping a large marine mammal (or more than one) in tanks is just bad. These animals would swim hundreds of miles each day. Even the less active animals would be foraging 20-50 miles per day. No amount of enrichment can change that. And a 20' x 20' tank is just cruel. However, if an animal is found injured and truly cannot be released back to the wild, then (treated correctly) it is a wise and unique choice to learn all we can from the animal while remaining in captivity. But most marine mammals at zoos and aquariums have been born in captivity. One can say that they therefore don't know any differently, they have only known captive living. But nature overrides nurture. We shouldn't be breeding marine mammals in captivity, nor should anyone be importing 18 whales from Russia for any reason. So the next time you are standing at the tank window looking at a marine mammal swimming around, think again. They are bored, anxious, and eating an artificial diet in a tank that is comparable to your family room, every day, all day, never seeing any other walls. Where is that enormous ocean where they would normally swim and forage?

I can't speak to every aquarium and zoo. Just forget the ones without AZA certifications altogether. But I know firsthand (I have had the opportunity in my job to go behind the scenes) that many thought of as research institutions fail miserably behind the scenes. The pay is so low that it is not a living wage, even with an undergraduate degree in the liberal arts, let alone someone who has spent their academic career studying marine life. Yes it's sad, there are many employees who started out as volunteers, no actual education in biology, who are heading departments. Granted, there are also very competitive facilities where only those with the highest levels of education in zoology will do. However, I have yet to see a zoo or aquarium that is not running daily operations with anything other than volunteers and "interns." These are people who either love animals and offer their time (great if all they are doing is chopping food and scooping poop, not so great if they are in charge of daily care, diets, enrichment, training) or they are students with as little as one year of undergrad (I think I took only liberal arts courses my first year) who think they want a career with zoo animals and are working 40 hours per week unpaid. Yes, right now I know of a few very highly educated people out there doing unpaid internships. But the stories they tell about daily life in zoos and aquariums would curl your hair. As for the others yet without the appropriate education, you get what you pay for.

And SeaWorld, Disney, the restaurants with dolphin tanks, Legoland that have marine mammals...just no. Although a whale breaches naturally in the wild, there is no reason for anyone to make it breach on command. If you can't provide the ocean then you have no business providing the animals. Circuses...just no. They have to transport those animals (most days of their lives) in small shipping containers and cages. No.

So that leaves us with literally a handful of reputable facilities who house their animals in respectable habitats. I'm not sure how that's possible with marine mammals though, so I'm still going to say no to that one unless someone can point out a facility where marine mammals have quite enough space. Aquariums with fish and invertebrates in appropriate habitats are great. Many of the smaller species would have a very small geographic range in the wild. Providing an interesting and suitably large enclosure is not that difficult. And I don't think anyone is going to train a jellyfish to jump through a hoop to exploit the species anytime soon; no one is going to pay the price of admission. And I truly believe we should stop ALL breeding of marine mammals in captivity. There is no reason to breed more animals to live in habitats that can never provide them the life they would live in the wild.

For those who are curious, IMATA is an international organization of trainers. Most IMATA members I have met are dedicated to training show animals. Since I consider it abnormal to train an animal to jump through a hoop, clap their flippers, or twirl in the air, stand on a 3' diameter platorm...I'm fine without IMATA. We are not teaching children anything good by letting them watch these shows. Want to train something? Dogs have been domesticated for hundreds of years. That would be a better choice. If you want to train an animal to let you examine it regularly for health checks, great. There are those animals that have been rescued and cannot be released. But at least hire someone with an education commensurate to the job, not OJT or barely made it out of high school. Although most zoos and aquariums are non-profits they need to reduce the animals that they house, thereby reducing their overhead, so that they can provide an educated staff to care for the animals that they have carefully chosen. I know there are many trainers who love their animals, love their jobs. But swimming with the dolphins should not be encouraged at any level.

Zoos seem to be doing a better job with habitats these days, compared to aquariums. But I would have to comment that children can see a giraffe at almost any zoo so maybe they aren't considered exotic anymore. Zoo animals should be kept as close to native as possible...no marshmallows and peanuts allowed. Humans should not even be allowed close enough to feed those things to the animals. Keep your distance, allow them to exist without human interference. And for those chosen few who are providing the daily care for those animals, please don't pay them minimum wage and make them work at Olive Garden so they can afford the apartment they share with 6 other employees. Ya, I get it, it's a choice. The colleagues at non-profit zoos are living at the low end of the wage scale like their cohorts at the aquariums. So it's either unpaid interns, volunteers, or minimum wage diehards.

It's really sad that our country does not support the natural sciences in a responsible way. I'll get off my soapbox now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2015, 02:06 PM
 
13,981 posts, read 26,029,292 times
Reputation: 39930
^^Great post.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2015, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Living on the Coast in Oxnard CA
16,289 posts, read 32,429,337 times
Reputation: 21892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
Oh BS! An elephant should be removed from it's herd, and spend decades pacing around an enclosure to educate us? About what, pray tell? How best to make animals suffer? It certainly doesn't teach anybody anything about the natural behavior of the elephant.
I was at the Los Angeles Zoo on Saturday and the Elephants seemed to be just fine. They are well taken care of and enjoying life. On top of that lots of people enjoyed seeing the elephant.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2015, 01:57 PM
 
Location: North America
14,204 posts, read 12,322,883 times
Reputation: 5565
Sure, why not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2015, 03:18 PM
 
Location: california
7,338 posts, read 6,962,493 times
Reputation: 9289
I don't see it as entertainment so much as people interacting with animals and developing relationship with them that is quite unique.
We know that in the wild dolphins have come to the rescue of humans ,why is a mystery but that all the more makes for a fascination for their regard for man greater than man's regard for them.
The animal thrives on performance ,much like dogs that are trained/bread for work.
I think that dolphins know the environment they are in, and know it's safer in there than in the ocean.
May be not true of those born in captivity however , dolphins to teach one another ,both their offspring and other dolphins.
Seems to me that if those with money loved these creatures so much they would teach dolphin how to avoid nets , seeing that is how so many are lost from fishing for a tuna or albacore or other popular fish or marine biologist .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2015, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,980 posts, read 14,601,403 times
Reputation: 14863
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
I don't see it as entertainment so much as people interacting with animals and developing relationship with them that is quite unique.
We know that in the wild dolphins have come to the rescue of humans ,why is a mystery but that all the more makes for a fascination for their regard for man greater than man's regard for them.
The animal thrives on performance ,much like dogs that are trained/bread for work.
I think that dolphins know the environment they are in, and know it's safer in there than in the ocean.
May be not true of those born in captivity however , dolphins to teach one another ,both their offspring and other dolphins.
Seems to me that if those with money loved these creatures so much they would teach dolphin how to avoid nets , seeing that is how so many are lost from fishing for a tuna or albacore or other popular fish or marine biologist .
This is a seriously scary post.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-21-2015, 05:06 PM
 
Location: here
24,873 posts, read 36,260,240 times
Reputation: 32732
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post
I was at the Los Angeles Zoo on Saturday and the Elephants seemed to be just fine. They are well taken care of and enjoying life. On top of that lots of people enjoyed seeing the elephant.
They "seemed" fine and are "enjoying life?" Did they tell you that? What does an elephant who is enjoying life look like?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:43 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top