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Yes my son is an atheist. He doesn't believe in god so he fits the definition.
At 5 he isn't really mature enough to accept a god claim on his own so I don't see how he can decide to believe in one and take the oath. Honestly reading through these comments has helped me to realize that there is unfortunately no way for him to join the organization. And as far as me taking a pledge, I would want to be active in the organization with him.
Because your son is now in school meeting new classmates with differing religious beliefs I think it would benefit you both to have a chat. Things are bound to come up like how come we don't pray before we eat? Or why don't we go to church? I think as long as you are open and honest with him he will understand. Just don't tell him the scouts don't want him, like in your title, as that would be hurtful.
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"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
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In thinking through this, clawson, when you deny your son membership in this organization that he wants to join, you're going to have to say it. "It's a good organization, I enjoyed it very much but you can't be in it because I don't believe in God. I didn't believe in God when I joined as a child, but that's different."
Is the greater good your son will experience - friendship, interesting and educational activities, leadership skills, worth this?
In thinking through this, clawson, when you deny your son membership in this organization that he wants to join, you're going to have to say it. "It's a good organization, I enjoyed it very much but you can't be in it because I don't believe in God. I didn't believe in God when I joined as a child, but that's different."
Is the greater good your son will experience - friendship, interesting and educational activities, leadership skills, worth this?
Well I did believe in god when I joined as a child, at least in the way many marginally religious people do by default. So, as a child I wasn't lying. As I said in another post I think the discussion has really made me realize that he cannot be part of the organization.
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"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 8 days ago)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clawsondude
Well I did believe in god when I joined as a child, at least in the way many marginally religious people do by default. So, as a child I wasn't lying. As I said in another post I think the discussion has really made me realize that he cannot be part of the organization.
That's going to be a hard discussion. You can't be a Tiger Cub with your friends because I'm an atheist.
Is this the hill you want to die on? I doubt this will help your son embrace your own personal philosophy on whether there is or is not a higher being. It will make him resentful and feel isolated.
I'm a pretty stout atheist. But we sent our kids to a local Catholic school for pre-K simply because it worked out better for the commute and schedule. I really didn't lose sleep over it all.
The two oldest boys are now 5 years old and they just started doing the cub scouts. I tend to bite my tongue over the whole God thing because the kids genuinely enjoy the activities they have participated in previously in their Catholic pre-school and now in the Cubs. Of course, perhaps this is more of a regional thing, but I don't really see a whole lot of religious references here in the scouts in MA. I don't even remember any pledge. I'm still not going to lose sleep over it.
Either way...they are 5. Kids that age don't know anything about the greater world. They just want to play with dinosaurs and trucks and run around and do activities and have fun.
Maybe it's because I had a year of law school but the pledge is allegiance to the flag, not to God. It says the US is one nation under God with liberty and justice for all, but it doesn't say you believe that. It seems to me it's not about lying but about accepting others' views without having to change yours. I'm a liberal, most of my friends are conservative. We just accept each other without trying to change each others' minds. We find other things to talk about. It's mutual respect. People lie all the time. It's almost a necessity of life. My kids might tell me they bought such and such. I'm thinking that's nuts. But they aren't asking my opinion so I just say that's great, use it in good health. And you don't know what your son will be or believe in the future. Right now he's a kid who wants to be a cub scout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clawsondude
I understand what you are saying, but my son and I would both be lying every time we took the oath. You don't see the problem there? Yes there are shades of gray, but I have a hard time pledging something I absolutely don't believe in.
Again, this is about my son though. On the one hand I don't really see a problem with the white lie, but on the other hand I don't want to teach him to compromise who he is.
That's going to be a hard discussion. You can't be a Tiger Cub with your friends because I'm an atheist.
Is this the hill you want to die on? I doubt this will help your son embrace your own personal philosophy on whether there is or is not a higher being. It will make him resentful and feel isolated.
I don't really want him to embrace my personally philosophy, I want him to learn to think for himself. And it isn't just me who is an atheist, as I stated, he is an atheist. There is no way that at 5 years old his brain is mature enough to evaluate a religious argument for a god. Once he is older he can look at these arguments on his own. Unfortunately affirming the BSA oath predisposes him to belief.
You are right, it could potentially be a hard conversation. I am realizing it will be necessary. Of course he is 5 so the excitement over Scouts could be forgotten by next week
You are right, it could potentially be a hard conversation. I am realizing it will be necessary.
I admire the fact that you are at least considering the fact that this means something, despite the rationalizations and workarounds many have offered you here.
It's obvious that oaths mean very little to some people, and even though I don't agree with your stance on God, I respect the fact that you are feeling the struggle of consequence of your choice instead of just looking for a way to get around it.
Talk to your son. You may be surprised at what he understands. Good luck, whatever you decide.
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"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 8 days ago)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude
You seem to be unaware that an oath can be taken under any authority the witness chooses, including affirmation for the non-religious.
I thought BSA had dropped the religious requirement (as a requirement). Oh, well.
See, I though they did too. In fact, that's the way it was treated around here in around 2010.
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