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>>>> Dismantling Penn State's football program is not going to help the school. Look at Notre Dame. They've been eking by for years barely able to even recall their glory days. Football is what made modern Penn State and while I'll admit the last several years has seen its program slip with Paterno's advancing age, all you have to do is go there to see what he's done for that university. The man was loved by the students and still is. I'm not sure a truly rotten person could get away with that. Beyond the new stadium and the football program, look at the rest of the campus. Of course now we'll be seeing what else he's done to it with this horrible turn of events and he has to take his share of reponsibility. But it goes beyond scapegoating him and Mac*****y. It lies with the district attorney( now assumed dead, that in itself is troubling), the administration, the trustees, the police, the parents of the children, whoever else was involved in the crime and related offenses, the mishandled investigation, bad judgement of those who knew something and said nothing and the coverup. Its one big foul mess up in State College and looks to get worse the more it gets scrutinized.
But maybe instead of everybody dogpiling on Paterno and waiting in line to kick him, they can try to work with him to restore a semblance of order on campus and try to keep the school from imploding. Not to mention trying to get the story out fully to stop all this speculation.
I think he should have been forced to resign immediately, but being fired by phone by panicking trustees( who knows what they knew about the crime and coverup already) was just wrong.
Good post and I agree with it especially the bolded part.
The thing I find troubling is how the focus is on Paterno when there were so many people involved.
I will admit that I had no knowledge of this before it broke in the news recently and I'm still hearing more. I find it very strange that nothing in the Grand Jury addresses the DA that went missing from the initial investigation. And apparently no one picked that up to see it through.
With the information available from the Grand Jury report I find it difficult to understand why Paterno was fired yet McCreery was not. He actually witnessed the crime and not only did he not try to stop it, he waited until the following day to report it to his superior rather than the police.
It's troubling that so many agencies investigated this and it took 10 years to finally charge Sandusky with a crime. I also find it troubling how many people here are willing to say they would convict a coworker based on a rumor. If I heard a coworker had harmed a child I would contact the authorities and want it checked out, but if the conclusion was that no charges were filed I would assume that what I was told was not true. People start rumors or exaggerate stories all the time. I would never convict someone in my mind based on a rumor that was (at the time) not substantiated.
By simply reading the Grand Jury investigation it is apparent that either Sandusky was very good at hiding his crimes or this is a failure on the part of law enforcement, Child Protective Services, the college, and the judicial system as well.
I am not defending Paterno. I am questioning why McCreery is still at the college when Paterno was fired. And I'm wondering if all the other systems that failed these young boys shouldn't be investigated as well. The whole thing is outrageous, but if you report something and nothing is done, what more can we do? For me personally, I'm especially upset with CPS because they are the one agency that is specifically trained to deal with our children and spot abuse. If they couldn't conclude that charges were in order after an eyewitness reports a rape, heaven help our children and what in the H are we paying these people for?
And while the victims should be the focus in all of this we have put our focus on Paterno rather than Sandusky, who actually IS the perpetrator. JMO
I haven't read the entirity of this discussion, so forgive me if this has been said earlier...
It seems to me that while firing JoePa might be the appropriate course, the whole 'He may have fulfilled his legal obligation, but failed to fill his moral obligation, so he's got to go' line of thinking has one fundamental problem--the standard that's being applied to him would probably see many people fired from their jobs. Essentially, he's been fired, not for doing something wrong, but for failing to do enough right.
Which of us isn't guilty of the same failing somewhere along the line? And for those who are guilty of similar failings, isn't there some degree of hypocrisy inherent in holding him to a different standard than we're willing to hold ourselves to?
It's a sad end to a great career, either way....
We are not talking about a single event that one has made an error. We are talking about keeping quiet for years and keeping a staff member employed and having the same access to the facilities. That goes well beyond a simple failing.
In addition, he said he went to the Athletic Director. He says he did that but what was the tone of the conversation. What was the real conversation? We only know what we have been told. It certainly was not a conversation to help an assaulted child because they made no contact with the child and his parents or any counselors. They sought no help from anybody for the child. So, I would propose that was not the reason for the conversation, to help a child or prevent future abuse. Of, course they did not call the police.
If I was fly on the wall, I may have heard, Joe say:
"Da, da, we have a problem this grad assistant of mine, saw this ahhh, da....really bad. He told his dad about it. What are we going to do?? We got to keep this quiet.....daaaa....this is going to cause problems"
The Athletic Director answers, "don't worry about...we can handle this... I will go to the VP and we will take care of it...No, one will find out... Do not say anything else"
Joe answer: "Da,,, ahh.....da....da OK, da I know nothin, I saw nothin....ahhhh...Ya I'll...da... do nothin"
Later on, the abuse is continuing, it is harder to contain, so the adminstrators go the President of the University and tell him that this sexual abuser's access is being restricted in the university. Again, no concern or help for any child. A conversation more likely from the president:
"OK, you all did good keeping it quiet. I agree...do not give me the details...I do not need to know...we did not have this conversation...that is your job to contain it"
Readers, please think about it
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 11-11-2011 at 08:51 AM..
Educators are required to report abuse of any kind to the police and/or social services depending on the state. He didn't do this. I hold him to the same standard as I hold everyone else when it comes to abuse - it must be reported.
Joe just doesn't get it and apparently a lot of others don't either. It's really quite simple - if it were your child or grandchild being abused what would you do? It takes about a millisecond to answer that question, so there is no different standard in my opinion.
The problem with your statement is that CPS did an investigation and didn't file charges. It was reported and investigated. Paterno fired Sandusky. Why was Paterno the one that should go to police instead of McCreery?
I was abused as a child so YES I would want it reported! But if nothing is done, where do you turn?
We are not talking about a single event that one has made an error. We are talking about keeping quiet for years and keeping a staff member employed and having the same access to the facilities. That goes well beyond a simple failing.
In addition, he said he went to the Athletic Director. He says he did that but what was the tone of the conversation. What was the real conversation? We do not really know what was the tone of the conversation, but only what we have been told. It certainly was not a conversation to help an assaulted child because they made no contact with the child and his parents or any counselors. They sought no help from anybody for the child. So, I would propose that was not the reason for the conversation, to help a child or prevent future abuse. Of, course they did not call the police.
If I was fly on the wall, I may have heard, Joe say:
"Da, da, we have a problem this grad assistant of mine, saw this ahhh, da....really bad. He told his dad about it. What are we going to do?? We got to keep this quiet.....daaaa....this is going to cause problems"
The Athletic Director answers, "don't worry about...we can handle this... I will go to the VP and we will take care of it...No, one will find out... Do not say anything else"
Joe answer: "Da,,, ahh.....da....da OK, da" I know nothin
Later on, the abuse is continuing, it is harder to contain, so the adminstrators go the President of the University and tell him that this sexual abuser's access is being restricted in the university. Again, no concern or help for any child. A conversation more likely from the president:
"OK, you all did good keeping it quiet. I agree...do not give me the detail...I do not need to know...that is your job to contain it"
Readers, please think about it
Livecontent
Pretty good conversation you have going in your mind but the problem is...they did contact Child Protective Services and nothing was done. Do you hold them responsible for this in any way?
Hey, at least you're honest. But you probably know nothing about how most football programs work, at least at the bigger schools. At the top 50 schools football often brings in MORE money than all other athletics combined, and that is just in direct revenue. A single bowl game can bring in 20+ million. Add on top of that all of the "non-direct" revenue that comes in from endowments and you have a fortune. That money isn't used purely to continue football. There was a good article posted a few weeks ago about entry requirements for major conferences like the PAC 12. These schools are required to conduct a large amount of research as well as produce a steady stream of published peer reviewed papers. These schools also have endowments in the $500 million to one billion dollar range or higher. Do you think that would happen without football or basketball? Boise state has increase their endowments 10 fold since move to Division I. If you want every school in the nation to look like a community college then keep your fanatical drive going. While I do agree there are major problems with the NCAA, the good far outweighs the bad. This is a horrible incident, but it I don't think would be any different than if it happened at some random Fortune 500 company.
I am a fan of college sports including football. But your numbers are simply wrong, especially about bowl games. No school earns $20M from a bowl game. Many college teams lose money on bowl games because they spend too much money taking the team, the band, and related staff to the bowl game. Even the biggest of BCS games doesn't earn that kind of money for a single team. Every conference has a revenue sharing rule that distributes bowl earnings, just like TV revenue. Not necessarily evenly, but distributed among all conference members.
Pretty good conversation you have going in your mind but the problem is...they did contact Child Protective Services and nothing was done. Do you hold them responsible for this in any way?
BS! when?? Did they at that time, at the first conversation, the first encounter, the first knowledge of the events? Did they?? Were there other events that they had knowledge? We really do not know the real time line of the events. Do we?? We only know what they want us to know and believe. So, my "make believe" conversations, may be true, or may not be true? that WE DO NOT KNOW, but WE KNOW the abuse continued and these slime government employees continued on their high paying jobs while children suffered. Keep that in mind.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 11-11-2011 at 08:57 AM..
This is a truly horrendous occurrence, I will agree with that part. And it's a shame it went on for so long. But I just read through the grand jury report and I like you are still wondering what more Paterno was supposed to do. The way I read this is:
The grad student saw this happen and went to Paterno with the info the following day. Paterno went to the AD the day after that.
It's gets fuzzy as to when the AD went to the Campus Police and Child Protective Services but evidently after that both offices did an investigation.
Paterno said he didn't want him as asst coach anymore and the AD worked out the negotiations. Considering an investigation took place and no charges were filed I don't understand what more Paterno could do...he doesn't negotiate contracts and thought it was taken care of. To me, he's the ONLY one that acted appropriately. He got rid of him because of the accusations regardless of the fact no charges were filed.
If it were only the campus police that were involved I would think Penn would be more at fault but Child Protective Services didn't file charges or go to the cops. I think that is appalling and happens far too often.
There were several times that things seemed suspicious to people yet no one followed through on their suspicions. Very sad. But in my opinion a state agency that is trained to handle these situations failed all these victims by giving people the impression that the situation didn't warrant legal action initially. At least until more information becomes available. The bit about pimping the kids out to donors sounds like some angry assumption. But I could be wrong.
You are not recognizing all of the timeline. The first incident was in 1998. But the "big incident" occurred in 2002. This was three years after Sandusky retired. Paterno was made aware, and probably did the procedural correct thing - he notified his superiors. Then he did nothing else.
If Sandusky's retirement was at least partially due to his conduct, then Paterno knew Sandusky had a problem. The 2002 incident was an astounding confirmation of Sandusky's criminal character. Paterno should have been unsatisfied that PSU leadership did nothing other than tell Sandusky he couldn't bring children on campus. Paterno has been coaching young men for 50+ years, some as young as 17 entering Penn State. How could he tolerate seing Sandusky on campus, hanging around the PSU players in the locker room?
It appears instead that Paterno continued to feel loyalty for Sandusky and put the problems "out of mind."
I have always respected Paterno as a college football coach, but as a father of two boys I cannot fathom his inaction on this issue. He is not as complicit as Penn State administration, but he bears some responsibility for this situation.
I am a fan of college sports including football. But your numbers are simply wrong, especially about bowl games. No school earns $20M from a bowl game. Many college teams lose money on bowl games because they spend too much money taking the team, the band, and related staff to the bowl game. Even the biggest of BCS games doesn't earn that kind of money for a single team. Every conference has a revenue sharing rule that distributes bowl earnings, just like TV revenue. Not necessarily evenly, but distributed among all conference members.
OK, no more $20 million, but still nothing to sneeze at. While the revenue sharing does chop it down, the totals for premium bowl winners are huge. The other numbers regarding endowments came from an article on conference entry requirements. It shouldn't take long to find on the net.
Bowl Game (2011-12 Projected Payout)
AdvoCare V100 Independence Bowl ($2,300,000)
Allstate BCS National Championship (**)
Allstate Sugar Bowl (**)
AT&T Cotton Bowl ($7,250,000)
AutoZone Liberty Bowl ($2,875,000)
BBVA Compass Bowl ($1,925,000)
Beef O’Brady’s Bowl St. Petersburg ($1,075,000)
Belk Bowl ($3,400,000)
Bell Helicopter Armed Forces Bowl (*$1,200,000)
Bridgepoint Education Holiday Bowl ($4,150,000)
Capital One Bowl ($9,100,000)
Champs Sports Bowl ($4,550,000)
Chick-fil-A Bowl ($6,900,000)
Discover Orange Bowl (**)
Famous Idaho Potato Bowl ($650,000)
Franklin American Mortgage Music City Bowl ($3,675,000)
Gildan New Mexico Bowl ($912,500)
GoDaddy.com Bowl ($1,500,000)
Hyundai Sun Bowl ($4,000,000)
Insight Bowl ($6,650,000)
Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl ($1,675,000)
Little Caesars Pizza Bowl ($1,500,000)
MAACO Bowl Las Vegas ($2,200,000)
Meineke Car Care Bowl of Texas ($3,400,000)
Military Bowl pres. by Northrop Grumman ($2,000,000)
New Era Pinstripe Bowl (*$3,600,000)
Outback Bowl ($7,000,000)
R+L Carriers New Orleans Bowl ($1,000,000)
Rose Bowl Game Presented by VIZIO (**)
San Diego Co. Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl ($1,000,000)
Sheraton Hawaii Bowl ($1,300,000)
TaxSlayer.com Gator Bowl ($5,450,000)
TicketCity Bowl ($2,200,000)
Tostitos Fiesta Bowl (**)
Valero Alamo Bowl ($6,350,000)
Approximate Total: $281,787,500
*2010-11 payout figure
**An estimated $181 million will be distributed by the BCS Group to the FBS and FCS conferences.
I am a fan of college sports including football. But your numbers are simply wrong, especially about bowl games. No school earns $20M from a bowl game. Many college teams lose money on bowl games because they spend too much money taking the team, the band, and related staff to the bowl game. Even the biggest of BCS games doesn't earn that kind of money for a single team. Every conference has a revenue sharing rule that distributes bowl earnings, just like TV revenue. Not necessarily evenly, but distributed among all conference members.
Try $17M per team for this year's BCS payouts. Seems it would take quite a bit of financial malfeasance to not make a profit on that amount of money. I could imagine this could cover the travel of quite a large contingent of folks, yet still leave enough to share with your friends: College Football Bowl Schedule.
Given most conferences have several teams in bowl games, I'd say it's pretty lucrative for spot schools involved.
Try $17M per team for this year's BCS payouts. Seems it would take quite a bit of financial malfeasance to not make a profit on that amount of money. I could imagine this could cover the travel of quite a large contingent of folks, yet still leave enough to share with your friends: College Football Bowl Schedule.
Given most conferences have several teams in bowl games, I'd say it's pretty lucrative for spot schools involved.
Except that money doesn't go directly to the team in most cases. It goes to the conference and is split according to a formula. If a conference sends 5 teams to bowl games and the conference earns $3M per game per team, they would split $15M among 12 teams in some fashion. Very desirable, but no team will get a $17M payday from one bowl game.
The money in college sports is obscene by the way. The more there is, the more incentive there is to preserve the status quo. Fewer people will be willing to upset the apple cart. And if it were a billion dollars, it still doesn't excuse a college from taking appropriate action if one of their own is a child predator.
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