Disappearing Catholic Pennsylvania (Clarks Summit, Kane, Clark: loans, employment, neighborhood)

[chris123678]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan2013

The emboldened statement is very true. Archbishop Chaput isn't exactly helping either. Many young people see him as bigoted, and is turning them off from the Catholic faith. I can say this authoritatively as I graduated from a Philadelphia area Catholic high school in 2013. As a non-Catholic, I always enjoyed hearing Mass and Theology class. I had also expected the students to be adherent to the Catholic faith. That's not what I found when I attended! There were many atheists and agnostics who were Catholic-raised. They generally disagreed with the Church's positions on gay marriage, abortion, women in the Priesthood, etc. Those were some of the things that turned some of my peers off from the Catholic faith. I must say that I do want to be baptized as a Catholic eventually.

I will also note that there is still a strong Catholic presence in Delaware County. One way to identify people is by which parish they go to. I have also heard that there is a strong Catholic presence in the Bridesburg section of Philly.

Delaware County I fear is going to get hit hard when the pastoral planning initiative kicks in. I've noticed that these closings are very odd. Many successful churches have closed in the last few years.

You're certainty right! I've had my own issue with Chaput and he is not a very friendly person, and he is bigoted. Nobody wants to attend a church where they are not allowed to question.

Port Richmond still boast 5 Catholic churches.

[I_Like_Spam]

Originally Posted by auntieannie68

there are catholic churches growing in the south---the priests are supplemented by deacons,plus the south is actively recruiting priests by encouraging those of other religions to convert and start their journey towards priesthood.

many are married when ordained or from other countries--my experience uphere in the north is that neither the dioceses nor the parishoners would condone this

btw--the catholic communities i encountered here ARE NOT welcoming to newcomers

The Rust Belt communities lost a lot of people- a large number of them Catholics- during and after the collapse of steel.


Many moved to the southlands, areas which didn't receive very many immigrants during the great periods of immigrations at the end of the 19th Century. 50 years ago, there probably weren't more than 2 or 3% Catholic in the Carolinas. That changed when people- many Catholic- could find a job here and went there. The South also got a lot of migrants from heavily Catholic places south of the border.


The migration of Catholics from other parts is a big reason for catholic populations grown south of the Mason Dixon.

[Bazzwell]

The Catholic church is simply doing what any business needs to do in this day and age, nothing more, nothing less. You look at the locations of your stores and see which branches are doing well and which aren't. You shutter those that have failed or can't support themselves and back those that are sustaining themselves and improving.

Think about it, any church location that would bring in enough to support itself and have enough to send back to the home office would be in zero danger of closing or consolidating. I've seen just one local church manage to stall off being closed, a Ukraine one. The home office flat out said that they couldn't support the branch anymore and the few remaining members would have to travel many miles away in future. After much discussion and argument they agreed the branch would remain open provided they asked for no support for anything and paid for the priest out of their own pockets, in cash and before the service by the way.

It's just business, that's all.

[chris123678]

Originally Posted by Bazzwell

The Catholic church is simply doing what any business needs to do in this day and age, nothing more, nothing less. You look at the locations of your stores and see which branches are doing well and which aren't. You shutter those that have failed or can't support themselves and back those that are sustaining themselves and improving.

Think about it, any church location that would bring in enough to support itself and have enough to send back to the home office would be in zero danger of closing or consolidating. I've seen just one local church manage to stall off being closed, a Ukraine one. The home office flat out said that they couldn't support the branch anymore and the few remaining members would have to travel many miles away in future. After much discussion and argument they agreed the branch would remain open provided they asked for no support for anything and paid for the priest out of their own pockets, in cash and before the service by the way.

It's just business, that's all.

"You shutter those that have failed."
Perhaps this is because I'm Roman Catholic myself and feel this way, but when does a church in this particular situation fail? If I look back in history when the invididual parishes were formed, there registered households began as 500 and risen over time. Some declining churches still have over 1000 households. Yes it's a decline from their peak, but even today, the parishes still beat out their original membership, and that seemed to have sustained a parish. Look at the patterns, many parishes that close are in the inner-city, many serve poor families, small in number, yet since this parish isn't big enough, it's failed and we should close it? Yes, it has a business run method to it, but at some point, you can't treat it like a business. Time and time again, the church has abandoned the poorer neighborhoods for better ones, they are abandoning the mission they are built upon.

Furthermore, there are several churches that are self sustaining and that are in good standings that have closed. Why?
One can only speculate, but some of these churches are prime real-estate. Even the prosperous ones have feel victim to this nonsense.

[Bazzwell]

You can't look back in any business situation, you must look ahead. If a parish that is holding it's own today is in danger of being closed then there must be some other forecast or statistic that comes into play. Real estate value perhaps, but in my own career in that field we found most were extremely tough sells as they were in declining areas.

It's no more complex than closing a Walmart on one side if the highway and building a new one a few miles down the road on the other side. People may have flocked to the old one but forecasts and statistics show the new one will do better.

I know how hard it is to accept but the church, any church, just can't throw money around anymore because it's the right thing to do. Think of all the changes over the years to make things easier for more folks to come in or back to the church, gays, the divorced and so on. More rumps in the seat, the more in the offering plate. Business.

[supertrucker212]

Originally Posted by blauskies

Traditional Catholic churches were declining in PA years ago, even near where I grew up and had some relatives that lived in the Coal Regions, back in the 70's the churches had Onion domes and were either Ukrainian or Polish, they had Mass in different languages. Last I heard, one church I use to go to as a young kid with my parents was torn down a number of years ago, declining congregation was one of the reasons.

My parents are from Mt. Carmel, you are bringing back memories of my childhood days when we would go to see the grandparents. Coal banks in the background, half-double roof-tops with a few onion domes sprinkled in between lol. I can remember back in the 90's when they started closing the church and/or consolidating them. My grandparents thought it was a shame, but like my dad would try to explain; churches cost money to operate and there's just not enough people going to church to sustain the operating costs. Plus, this is when the old generation started to die off. IMO, the coal region is a dying area, its been dying since the Centralia mine fire, it will continue to die and it never will thrive again.

If I had a dollar for every time my mom says how grateful she is that we moved out of there over 30 years ago I'd be a wealthy man

[Clark Park]

I read in the news the other day there is an "up-tick" of young men enrolling in the seminary to be priests here in Philly. They call it the Pope Francis effect.

Let's see if the Pope's visit in a few weeks has a sustained effect on this region.

[USAGeorge]

There is alway an excess of churches to people,,,and it will increase as time go's by. I've seen several small ones in my area converted to residences...I think the idea of going to hell if one misses services is a factor. I was talking to a nephew hes 28 and he said most of the people his age don't believe what he calls the made up heaven/hell thing...I guess they don't tend to attend services....A local place of worship is where we go...It's a small community and aside from worship it is a social hub with many services outside of worship...I will say that being a part of a community makes for a strong and caring one...We can use more of them...One thing,,it seems like Catholic churches rarely are small town oriented..

[NYCTelevisionWriter]

Originally Posted by chris123678

"You shutter those that have failed."
Perhaps this is because I'm Roman Catholic myself and feel this way, but when does a church in this particular situation fail? If I look back in history when the invididual parishes were formed, there registered households began as 500 and risen over time. Some declining churches still have over 1000 households.

Money talks.

If most of those 1,000 households are aged/poor/fixed income, the parish is no longer a viable economic entity. I've seen plenty of "big" parishes like this fail because they were chronically in the red.

At the end of the day, it's always about cash flow.

Originally Posted by chris123678

Furthermore, there are several churches that are self sustaining and that are in good standings that have closed. Why?

Are you SURE they were really "self-sustaining"? Or just barely paying their bills?

Or perhaps the writing was on the wall that these parishes were in for a serious decline in the future.

[chris123678]

Originally Posted by NYCTelevisionWriter

Money talks.

If most of those 1,000 households are aged/poor/fixed income, the parish is no longer a viable economic entity. I've seen plenty of "big" parishes like this fail because they were chronically in the red.

At the end of the day, it's always about cash flow.



Are you SURE they were really "self-sustaining"? Or just barely paying their bills?

Or perhaps the writing was on the wall that these parishes were in for a serious decline in the future.

Yes, they were actually "self- sustaining" parishes. They were parishes that had experienced massive growth over the years, including, baptisms that were out numbering funerals, and much more.

Parishes in New York which have never had financial issues or declining buildings were closed.