Of our 67 counties who has the best State roads and who has the worst? (Washington: prices, relocation)

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by fisheye

Your right and we are in the northern tier of district 5. But how do the district allocate resources? Many of the counties south of us seem to get better service or more bang for their bucks. It could just be my impression - but I never feel that our roads get the same attention.

By the way, do all 67 counties have their own State Highway shed or management "team"?

Check out the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation site. There is some information on there about long range planning. But like any government organization, powerful politicians are able to get more services and money allocated for their districts and pet projects.

Yes, each county has a county maintenance site. In the map on the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation site, click on the district and then you can click on each county to get the info.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by Gettingouttahere

District 5 covers six counties: Berks, Carbon, Schuylkill, Lehigh, Northampton and Monroe.
The legislators and the money are not in Monroe. They live in the Lehigh Valley and that's where the road dollars get allocated. I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
I have driven home from work in Lehigh behind snow plows in the middle of the night and watched them turn around on Route 33 at Wind Gap, the dividing line between Northampton and Monroe.
Case in point: the repaving of Route 33 in Northampton County, when Route 209 in Monroe is so bad that drivers used the breakdown lane in one stretch because the main road was so dangerous. (That was temporarily patched, but seriously, Route 209 has not been repaved in the 16 years I have lived here. Not *once*)

Actually all you have to do is look at the shoulder of Route 33. In many areas of Monroe you do not have enough room to safely pull off the highway. Not so as you enter Northampton; the difference is clear. I loved the times that I came around the corner, just south of the flee market in Saylorsburg, only to find a truck or car sticking into the slow lane. No logical engineer ever designed that highway!

[2nd trick op]

I'm speculating, but my theory is that the not-too-big rural counties (Adams, Columbia, Susquehanna) seem to do much better than those with a lot of small communities that were at one time called "patch towns" (Cambria, Schuylkill, Westmoreland) the reason being that the latter have to spread a limited amount of resources over a wider, but likely less-intensely-used system. Interstate highways wouldn't affect the picture since they have their own network.

Just a theory, but it seems to fit.

[CHIP72]

Originally Posted by Gettingouttahere

District 5 covers six counties: Berks, Carbon, Schuylkill, Lehigh, Northampton and Monroe.
The legislators and the money are not in Monroe. They live in the Lehigh Valley and that's where the road dollars get allocated. I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
I have driven home from work in Lehigh behind snow plows in the middle of the night and watched them turn around on Route 33 at Wind Gap, the dividing line between Northampton and Monroe.
Case in point: the repaving of Route 33 in Northampton County, when Route 209 in Monroe is so bad that drivers used the breakdown lane in one stretch because the main road was so dangerous. (That was temporarily patched, but seriously, Route 209 has not been repaved in the 16 years I have lived here. Not *once*)

Funding for significant state highway projects (repaving major, limited-access roads like PA 33 or US 209 would qualify) is allocated through regional transportation planning organizations (in close coordination with PennDOT) in their Transportation Improvement Program (TIP). Northampton County is part of the Lehigh Valley Planning Commission MPO area, while Monroe County is part of the Northeastern Pennsylvania Alliance RPO area.

State Transportation Commission

Major transportation projects generally do not cross MPO/RPO boundaries, though PennDOT may coordinate large-scale project phasing such that a project in one MPO/RPO area is followed by an adjacent project in another MPO/RPO area. Additionally, I'm reasonably sure PennDOT District maintenance units' (which will be numbered like 5-2 or 5-6 in PennDOT District 5) coverage areas do not cross county boundaries.

*MPO stands for Metropolitan Planning Organization, while RPO stands for Rural Planning Organization. Whether a region has an MPO or RPO depends on U.S. Census definitions for urbanized areas (not to be confused with metropolitan areas, which are related but different) and whether the largest urbanized area in a county has at least 50,000 people. MPO areas have cities with over 50K in its urbanized area, while RPOs do not have any cities with over 50K in its urbanized area in its region. MPO areas that include multiple counties have cities that have their urbanized areas spill over into adjacent counties. For example, in the Harrisburg area, part of Harrisburg's urbanized area spills over into Cumberland County and Perry County, so those counties are part of the Harrisburg MPO area.

[LeaderOCola]

I always loved that "state maintained road" sign on the blvd of the allies/forbes ramp.

[LeaderOCola]

anyways, too many to choose, even in my limited expierence.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by LeaderOCola

I always loved that "state maintained road" sign on the blvd of the allies/forbes ramp.

There is some history there. Back in the late1970s/early 1980s, the different governments battled over road maintenance responsibility. I think it was Pete Flaherty who had the first signs put up. I remember signs that said, "City of Pittsburgh Road Maintenance Ends Here," and "Allegheny County Road Maintenance Begins Here."

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by CHIP72

Funding for significant state highway projects (repaving major, limited-access roads like PA 33 or US 209 would qualify) is allocated through regional transportation planning organizations (in close coordination with PennDOT) in their Transportation Improvement Program (TIP).

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain the process. But as you travel thought the State you notice the differences between the various groups. Some do a great job and some do not.

My contention is that poor groups should always try to imitate the better groups. Nobody should settle for second place; let alone last place. If there is another district that works smarter; then we should work smarter. If there is another state that works smarter; we should try to both imitate and even improve on their performance.

Recently PA has received even more tax dollars to get the job done. Unfortunately there were no efficiency or production standards that went with that money. Some do a great job with the funds provided and some do not. The ones that don't give us a poor perception of government.

Many of our roads are outdated; like I stated before. If we have any hard rains and the water is coming up through the pavement for weeks after the rain; you have a problem. No amount of blacktop will remedy this problem - you have to start of with a new drainage system under the pavement. Everything else is just workfare and only temporarily holding off the inevitable.

I also understand that the problems with road building/maintenance are complicated today - nothing is simple and the regulations get worse. It will not be any easier in the future.

[CHIP72]

Some of the reason why some regions have better maintained roads than others has to do with funding and project phasing. PennDOT and the MPOs/RPOs can't implement all the necessary projects at the same time due to funding limitations. Additionally, a project can be on a region's TIP (or PennDOT's statewide STIP, a compilation of the various TIPs around the state) but only be in the pre-construct phases (which typically include preliminary engineering - that usually includes environmental clearance, final design engineering, right-of-way acquisition or clearance, and utilities). The pre-construct work must be completed before a project can be put out for construction bid and start construction. Sometimes you can also have project bids that are higher than original PennDOT estimates, and when that happens funding for projects on the TIP needs to be shifted around to maintain year-by-year and funding stream balance (which is a federal requirement for the TIPs and STIP). Much (actually the majority) of the funding PennDOT uses is actually federal funding and not state funding (both federal and state funding are largely collected via the federal and state gas taxes), and there are various types of federal transportation funding streams, including STP (general surface transportation), STU (surface transportation urban), NHS (National Highway System), IH (interstate highways), and CMAQ (congestion mitigation/air quality) among others. Some projects are eligible for fewer funding categories than others, and those different types of funds have a set allocation by year. All of the aforementioned requirements can make transportation project funding more challenging than it first appears.

I should note (as most people already know) tough winters with a lot of snow and freeze/thaw cycles are tough on the roads and the regions' and PennDOT's transportation budget. This past winter really was tough on the roads in many, many places, and meant that some projects took longer to get to than would be ideal or than would be the case in a less severe winter temperature and frozen participation-wise.

The above is not meant to imply that some parts of Pennsylvania don't have better or worse roads than other parts of the state; that is undoubtedly true.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by CHIP72

The above is not meant to imply that some parts of Pennsylvania don't have better or worse roads than other parts of the state; that is undoubtedly true.

I am still looking forward to seeing all of PENNDOT's new money in motion:
Pa. gas tax to rise Jan. 1, again in 2015 and '17, or our Turnpike: https://www.paturnpike.com/press/201...617121249.htmm, or the 2016 Turnpike increase:https://www.paturnpike.com/press/201...0707144125.htm. Of course that was on top of the already highest fuel taxes in the Nation.

Back in the 1970's we used to live only one quarter mile from our Monroe County Maintenance Offices:PennDOT District 5-0, Monroe County. Back then we still had the call 'fix road' program. I had one pothole in front of my store/residence that could swallow a small car. Most of the State workers drove to work over that hole and nobody fixed it for months. I finally called and reported it and our State did send out eleven workers to spend half a day fixing the one pothole - but why did I have to call? PENNDOT trucks and workers were getting banged up from this one large hole; just like the rest of us.

We are all in the same boat. If our workers in private enterprise cannot get to work; they can't earn money to pay higher taxes. Modern roads facilitate the system. The quicker you get the public to their jobs; the less they will complain about the new taxes.