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then i'm not sure that you read the original post of this thread. he said $100k, but then said $500k for more expensive cities like NYC.
Got it....I'm no expert on NYC, but if its anything like LA socioeconomically then there isn't a large middle-class in NYC, instead its mainly upper middle-class/upper class and working-class. Hence thinking about "middle-class" in NYC isn't that useful.
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Originally Posted by bradykp
so unless something happens to actually make people flee NJ (like, the increasingly higher property taxes if not addressed), then there is a supply of people willing to live in these homes.
Right, unless something happens, I suppose you don't get the part where I'm talking about just such a "something" happening. If you look at migration within the US you'll find that people are leaving the high-cost areas, the population growth (which is slow) in these areas is due to both immigrant from lower-income foreigners and births from this group. What is keeping the prices high are the generational issues, the boomers own a lopsided share of real estate and are able to keep evaluations high simply by not selling. Obviously...they can only hold out for so long, the grim ripper will come at some point.
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Originally Posted by bradykp
i'm sure boomers own a majority, but you really need to come here and see for yourself if you don't believe me, and they are not the cheaper neighborhoods that the young families have been taking over.
Don't believe you about what? There are a number of neighborhoods in the NYC metro area that are primarily youth, but this says nothing about my claim. Its the overall picture that matters, and overall the boomers own a lopsided share of real estate in the high-cost areas. So....what happens when the boomers retire, die, etc? At current evaluations there isn't enough youth to purchase the properties, either the NYC metro area will become a ghost-town of decayed boomers or home prices will decline to levels that will allow the market to clear. Remember, youth aren't coming into real estate with bubble equity, its all about their salary and salaries have been stagnant for the last decade.
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Originally Posted by bradykp
but i'm not slitting my wrist by buying a home in NJ. when i want to move, unless i move to a market that has been going up or not declining as much as the market i live in now, it's all relative.
Only time will tell whether this assertion is true or not.
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Originally Posted by bradykp
the "they aren't making land" comment applies to NJ on some degree. beachfront property is almost always in demand.
And it applies 10 fold in California where the beaches are actually nice...yet the cliche ignores the basics. Demand at what price level?!
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Originally Posted by bradykp
i just don't think it's as horrible for 20s, 30s, and 40s as people think.
Really? I'm not sure how it could get much worse. Are you just judging from your particular situation....or are you actually looking at broad-based measures?
Anyhow, in relation to this thread, I think what I'm talking about is one of the key issues. Younger folks see what their parents were able to do, the homes they owned, etc and now they find that they often can't achieve these things. Part of it is just being spoil, the younger generations are rather spoiled, but part of it is shifting economic circumstances. The cost of real estate in the Northeast, West coast, etc plays a big role here as young people are financially hurting themselves to achieve what their parents did....where as they really need to rewrite the play book.
so that's not middle class, or it is? i don't know how you could make well over $100k and not be doing pretty well. depending on how you define "well over", my wife and i make over $100k and live in NJ. i'm in an approximately $400,000 house and my tax rate is around 2.25%. my wife drives a 5 year old car, i drive a 1 year old car. we also have state income tax, which i don't think you have. SS tax, medicare tax, student loan payments. both contribute 10% to our 401ks, have a brokerage account, have quite a good amount going into our savings each month, and buy a lot of stuff that we "want" when we want it. i'm sitting down this month actually to try and waste less money on eating out and buying things, and saving more.
I'm trying to do the math here...and I just don't see how you could both save a lot and spend a lot. Since you said "over $100k" I'm assuming the income is close to $100k. So say your household income is $110k, with 10% going into retirement, your after tax/after retirement is around $78k or $6,500/month. Your PITI is probably around $3,000, so that leaves you with $3,500/month for everything else. You probably spend around $600/month on gas/insurance/repairs for your 2 cars and plus around $400/month for your new luxury car. No doubt you both have new smart phones, have cable, etc so your average utility bill is probably close to $500/month. So you have $2,000 left for food, entertainment, health care and other misc expenses...this leaves little to be saved/spent.
I'm trying to do the math here...and I just don't see how you could both save a lot and spend a lot. Since you said "over $100k" I'm assuming the income is close to $100k. So say your household income is $110k, with 10% going into retirement, your after tax/after retirement is around $78k or $6,500/month. Your PITI is probably around $3,000, so that leaves you with $3,500/month for everything else. You probably spend around $600/month on gas/insurance/repairs for your 2 cars and plus around $400/month for your new luxury car. No doubt you both have new smart phones, have cable, etc so your average utility bill is probably close to $500/month. So you have $2,000 left for food, entertainment, health care and other misc expenses...this leaves little to be saved/spent.
I can already see the blood dripping....
well...many of you assumptions are wrong, but i don't want to post my exact hh income. but......PITI is $2,900/month. i happen to have just got new phones for both of us (my wife's was almost 5 years old, but i upgraded from 2 years ago because my company wanted me to have a blackberry). my cell phone bill is $100/month. my cable/internet bill is $100/month. i spend about $350/month on gas. insurance is slightly higher than $150/month. my electric bill is <$60/month. household gas bill is typically $30-$40 for 6 months, then much higher in winter months. but i assure you....we are saving quite enough. no blood dripping here.
well...many of you assumptions are wrong, but i don't want to post my exact hh income. but......PITI is $2,900/month. i happen to have just got new phones for both of us (my wife's was almost 5 years old, but i upgraded from 2 years ago because my company wanted me to have a blackberry). my cell phone bill is $100/month. my cable/internet bill is $100/month. i spend about $350/month on gas. insurance is slightly higher than $150/month. my electric bill is <$60/month. household gas bill is typically $30-$40 for 6 months, then much higher in winter months.
You'll say your household income is above $100k, but you won't give a more precise number? Hmm....okay. Which assumptions were wrong? My utility numbers were amortized, factoring in the winter and summer, sounds like my estimate was pretty close. Also, my numbers were for two people, not just one, so my car estimate was actually on the low end given what you're saying.
Anyhow, its no skin off my bones, but your claims here and else where just aren't adding up.
You'll say your household income is above $100k, but you won't give a more precise number? Hmm....okay. Which assumptions were wrong? My utility numbers were amortized, factoring in the winter and summer, sounds like my estimate was pretty close. Also, my numbers were for two people, not just one, so my car estimate was actually on the low end given what you're saying.
Anyhow, its no skin off my bones, but your claims here and else where just aren't adding up.
Its a Legacy GT...that is a luxury car.
"i spend on" means my household. sorry. a legacy gt is not a luxury car, it's a sports sedan with AWD. maybe it's luxury to you, but i've never seen anyone classify it as a luxury car as far as motor trend, car and driver, consumer reports, etc. but it's more car than i "need", if that's what you mean by luxury, then ok.
why should i give you a precise number of my household income on a public forum? is that really necessary?
my claims here add up, i just don't have to share every personal finance detail with you.
And it applies 10 fold in California where the beaches are actually nice...yet the cliche ignores the basics. Demand at what price level?!
Really? I'm not sure how it could get much worse. Are you just judging from your particular situation....or are you actually looking at broad-based measures?
Anyhow, in relation to this thread, I think what I'm talking about is one of the key issues. Younger folks see what their parents were able to do, the homes they owned, etc and now they find that they often can't achieve these things. Part of it is just being spoil, the younger generations are rather spoiled, but part of it is shifting economic circumstances. The cost of real estate in the Northeast, West coast, etc plays a big role here as young people are financially hurting themselves to achieve what their parents did....where as they really need to rewrite the play book.
listen, i'm not jersey shore cheerleader, but the perception of beaches in NJ being crummy is overblown. there are a lot of nice beach communities in NJ that are not the subject of MTV shows.
the population of young people in the NYC metro area is not as dismal as you want to paint it, and it's not just immigrants. and there is quite a bit of middle class in the NY Metro area. but i guess you just define it differently and want to call it working class. that's fine. i see things differently in the area where I live. i guess time will tell.
If you look at migration within the US you'll find that people are leaving the high-cost areas, the population growth (which is slow...
Exactly. Look at just about any domestic migration pattern and basically the coastal metro areas in the NE and the West Coast are losing a huge number of people- including a lot of young professionals- the the Southeast and TX. I see this myself as someone who is from TN and now lives in California. A house here is $500,000. The same house in TN, TX, NC, SC, GA, and so on is more like $120,000-$150,000 and the jobs pays 70% of what you'd make at the same one here. Its a no-brainer.
listen, i'm not jersey shore cheerleader, but the perception of beaches in NJ being crummy is overblown. there are a lot of nice beach communities in NJ that are not the subject of MTV shows.
the population of young people in the NYC metro area is not as dismal as you want to paint it, and it's not just immigrants. and there is quite a bit of middle class in the NY Metro area. but i guess you just define it differently and want to call it working class. that's fine. i see things differently in the area where I live. i guess time will tell.
When I was a kid we used to go to Ocean City, NJ. It has some really nice family oriented beaches-- boardwalks-- and nothing crazy like on jersey shore.
Here is what I think most people consider a middle class lifestyle:
-Retire with same lifestyle as pre-retirement
-1-2 years worth of spending money in cash
-Enough money to buy a nice single family house (McMansion)
-Be able afford to put kids through university
-Money to buy new cars every 3-5 years
-Afford nice vacations each year (probably $10k+)
-Money to buy latest smartphone every 2 years,computers, and other electronics
My view of middle class:
-Retire with same lifestyle as pre-retirement
-1-2 years worth of spending money in cash
- Own my own house free and clear by age 50. Not a McMansion but the type I can clean thoroughly inside during one full day of labor with my wife. This means a typical 3/2.5/2 or similar squarefootage.
-Be able assist kids through university. They will appreciate it more if they work for it as I did. But I do not have any kids which is why I can pay off my house by age 50.
-Money to buy new cars every 15 years. Slightly pre-owned and with cash instead of installments is the best value for the dollar.
-Afford a nice vacation every few years
- Know that electronic gimmicks are worthless and a computer has reached the level of performance to last many years unless one is a gamer.
Current household income is over $100,000 gross annually and we do well only choose to be careful with money. We could still live middle class and in the same manner as above with much less. Median income for Miami $24800, families with children are still middle class with $65,000 gross househould income if they do not blow it on auto leases, heavy CC expenditures and electronic gizmos.
Exactly. Look at just about any domestic migration pattern and basically the coastal metro areas in the NE and the West Coast are losing a huge number of people- including a lot of young professionals- the the Southeast and TX. I see this myself as someone who is from TN and now lives in California. A house here is $500,000. The same house in TN, TX, NC, SC, GA, and so on is more like $120,000-$150,000 and the jobs pays 70% of what you'd make at the same one here. Its a no-brainer.
maybe i'm naive to think this, but to some degree, the romance of living "near NYC" is something strong for a lot of people. certainly not to me. i'm not hear because i love NYC. i like it. but i constantly meet people who move here because it's NYC. and really, the COL is not as bad as people blow it out to be in many of the areas that are commutable to NYC.
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