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That thread is huge and I'm certainly not going to waste my time reading the whole thing, the part you linked to wasn't about the book. In terms of "objective facts" (as if there are non-objective facts?!), the problem with the book is that the "data" is poorly collected and the authors try to draw causal claims from it rather than merely noting correlations. The book in no sense provides a proper scientific over-look on wealth and wealth generation in the US. Its about class-envy largely, you know, those working-class serfs can feel good about themselves for saving 10~20% of their income (despite being a pathetic sum) because the people driving Mercedes living in their hill top mansions are really just in debt and living beyond their means.
While not caring to debate the quality of the book in-depth, I do feel the need to add to your education. There are such things as non-objective facts. They're called subjective facts. You should probably look them up, as many of your points utilize them.
It really depends on your location, debt level, and amount you save for retirement.
We make more than 100k and we live in a 700 sq ft apartment for a montly rent equivalent to some people's house mortgage. We can only afford used cars when our current cars (also bought used) completely croak. We eat out once in awhile but cheaply and we don't really go out otherwise. I have a $15 per month basic cell phone plan and my husband gets his smart phone free from work. I have not bought much clothing or electronics - husband did buy a lot of things recently but we haven't upgraded in like 10 years so it's reasonable. We save the maximum amount allowed to our retirement accounts. We just paid off all our debts but with kids on the way we definitely won't have any extra savings after paying for childcare. Almost all our healthcare insurance and costs are paid by my work (woohoo). We take one international vacation per year on average but when our kids arrive, we won't be able to take any. I think this is a fairly middle class lifestyle - with an appropriate savings level for a middle class retirement. But if we had to pay for health insurance for everyone (instead of being on my awesome plan) we might actually be hurting.
I'm sure somebody else could make 100k+ stretch much farther... mostly in terms of what kind of home they are living in. I also suspect that most people are not saving enough for retirement when they live the "middle class" life.
Here is what I think most people consider a middle class lifestyle:
-Retire with same lifestyle as pre-retirement
That would be nice, but not necessary. I don't expect to need half of the crap I want/need now anyway.
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-1-2 years worth of spending money in cash
Got it.
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-Enough money to buy a nice single family house (McMansion)
Don't need it, nor do I want it. A modest, three-bedroom home on a small lot (less than 0.25 acre) is plenty for me.
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-Be able afford to put kids through university
That would be a priority, if I had kids.
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-Money to buy new cars every 3-5 years
Cars last a lot longer than 3-5 years, and this is an outdated priority for the middle-class people I know anyway. My last car was 9 years old when it got broadsided; otherwise, I might still have it. I keep my cars an average of 6.5 years. If people would quit hitting me, I'd keep them longer.
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-Afford nice vacations each year (probably $10k+)
More like $1K, if that. I can have a "nice" vacation for a couple of hundred bucks.
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-Money to buy latest smartphone every 2 years,computers, and other electronics
Don't want or need all of the latest toys. I just got a new phone; my old one was seven years old. Still works, too. If it ain't broke, it don't get replaced.
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The excepted middle class lifestyle is NOT really frugal.
What you're describing is not the accepted middle class lifestyle by a long shot. For one thing, the middle class is huge, and covers a large range of income; there are a lot of varying priorities in there.
The problem with a lot of these "accepted middle class" ideas is that they really included tremendous personal debt, which is why so many people are in the mess they are now.
I do feel the need to add to your education. There are such things as non-objective facts. They're called subjective facts. You should probably look them up, as many of your points utilize them.
I'd keep this sort of thing to yourself in the future, you're not adding to anything, what you're saying is silly. "Subjective fact" is an oxymoron used to mean "opinion" by those trying to sound smart, ironically it sounds the opposite. "Objective fact" is just redundant, again, the trying to sound smart thing.
You all are crazy. Why would I want to make 100K a year and work 80 hours a week? It's a shame what this country is about. You can't make a lot of money and have a life at the same time.
It's a scary future for younger people like myself.
I think this whole subject heavily depends on where you live. I can use myself as an extreme example. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. A starter home is for all practical purposes still around $500,000 or more. My Wife and I do fairly well all considered. We rent because to me buying a house here doesn't make financial sense.
On the other hand my parents live in TN. Combined my parents make less than I do. I'd say my wife and I combined make close to 4 times as much as they do. Yet they:
A: Live in a fairly decent house on 14 acres of land
B: Both drive somewhat newer cars
C: Have a healthy amount saved for retirement
D: Take lots of trips to Europe and the Mediterranean.
In all reality they are doing much better than me and my wife simply because where they live costs around 4 times less than here in Cali. Their whole property is worth less than $170,000. Here that would get you maybe a 1 bedroom apartment in a not so great part of town.
That said... I used to make a lot less. Way less. I still managed to save. The key to financial success is to invest as much as you can and start doing so as early as you can. If you were to invest $30,000 by the time you're 25-30, then you're already set. Most people fail to do that because they're too busy buying cars and houses. My cars are both 10+ years old and both have well over 200,000 miles. So what. They still run and even look good. I just take care of them. Someday we're going to ditch California for somewhere cheaper once we've saved up enough to avoid having a mortgage in whatever place that is.
Hate to break it to you chief, but middle class families can't afford vacations to Asia, Russia or Australia. Middle class families don't get a new car every 3 years. You are spoiled, and your parents sound upper middle class, maybe even wealthy.
A household making 100k or more is in the top 15% of household incomes in America (according to a report issued by the US Census bureau in 2005).
The top 15% is much more than merely middle class.
I hate calling people spoiled. Having high expectations of yourself is not spoiled. You call it spoiled, I call it motivation.
I hate throwing out numbers because in NJ, $100k (while being in top 15% nationwide) is not much to talk about. Same applies to California.
You all are crazy. Why would I want to make 100K a year and work 80 hours a week? It's a shame what this country is about. You can't make a lot of money and have a life at the same time.
It's a scary future for younger people like myself.
It does sound silly to work all that time and get paid so low.
Here is what I think most people consider a middle class lifestyle:
-Retire with same lifestyle as pre-retirement
-1-2 years worth of spending money in cash
-Enough money to buy a nice single family house (McMansion)
-Be able afford to put kids through university
-Money to buy new cars every 3-5 years
-Afford nice vacations each year (probably $10k+)
-Money to buy latest smartphone every 2 years,computers, and other electronics
Let's see.
- I'm 27, my retirement saving got off to a rocky start but I'm going to make up for it.
- I've got enough cash right now to last about 4 months with zero income. Again, I'm trying to do better now that I have a better job than before.
- Don't need a big family house. I'd rather have a 1000 sf shack on a couple acres on the outskirts, and oh yeah, I really don't want to have to finance it.
- No kids to put through college.
- Not interested in buying new cars all the time.
- Haven't taken a vacation yet in my working years.
- I do buy nice computers and video games, but that's not nearly as wasteful as the other things on your list.
The "middle class lifestyle" is dead and buried. The people you see living like that are either in their peak earning years, or they're in debt up to their eyeballs.
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