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Do you think Philadelphia is more of a middle class city than, say, Boston, Chicago, DC, or San Francisco?
How many "middle class" neighborhoods are there in the city and what are they?
If you were married and had to choose a neighborhood on a joint income of $90K, do you think you could live in Philadelphia, send your children to a quality school, and live in a decent house?
Finally, what are the city's biggest obstacles to retaining and attracting middle class families (schools being an obvious one, but even parochial schools seem cheap in Philly)?
Do you think Philadelphia is more of a middle class city than, say, Boston, Chicago, DC, or San Francisco?
A comparison to DC and SF may be a bit unfair as, primarily because of housing their middle-class would be the equivalent of upper-middle/upper-class in much of the country. Chicago may be the better if still imperfect comparison. But I admit I don't know enough about what neighborhoods would be considered middle-class and family-oriented in the Windy CIty
How many "middle class" neighborhoods are there in the city and what are they?
Hard to give a numerical figure but most can be found in NW Philly (notwithstanding upscale Chestnut Hill) and NE Philly. There are likely pockets in South Philly as well. Perhaps SW Philly with the newer communities near the airport.Even North Philly represents with East Oak Lane.
If you were married and had to choose a neighborhood on a joint income of $90K, do you think you could live in Philadelphia, send your children to a quality school, and live in a decent house? With more than one kid, that's working-class income IMO for Philly. DINKs could probably get a decent rowhome - or maybe a semi-detached house - in a fair part of the city.
Finally, what are the city's biggest obstacles to retaining and attracting middle class families (schools being an obvious one, but even parochial schools seem cheap in Philly)?
Obviously, most would agree on a more consistent quality of schools. Beyond that, probably newer housing and more retail conveniences that those in the 'burbs may have become accustomed to.
Do you think Philadelphia is more of a middle class city than, say, Boston, Chicago, DC, or San Francisco?
It's probably most similar to Chicago in that regard. SF is clearly wealthy. DC is more a city of extremes and "Boston" has too many municipalities to compare easily or accurately but in general i'd put it in the wealthy camp somewhere between SF and the extreme wealth/poverty of DC.
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How many "middle class" neighborhoods are there in the city and what are they?
There are too many to name but every part of the city has at least one. The Northeast and Northwest and mostly middle-class. South Philly has a large middle-class. West Philly too. North and Southwest are the only places where middle-class neighborhoods are limited (for now) but they still exist.
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If you were married and had to choose a neighborhood on a joint income of $90K, do you think you could live in Philadelphia, send your children to a quality school, and live in a decent house?
check, check, check and check.
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Finally, what are the city's biggest obstacles to retaining and attracting middle class families (schools being an obvious one, but even parochial schools seem cheap in Philly)?
quality of life. period. the end. I'm talking things like lack of parks and park funding, litter, kids tearing up and down the street on dirt bikes, etc. The school thing could be easier but it's not hard to send your kid to a decent school.
I understand what you are saying, but shouldn't you just be able to determine DC's affordability by looking at the median income for a family, and then seeing if that income would allow a family to purchase a home. In the DC area, I think the median income for a household is about $90K, but yet the median home price is about $400K. I'm not sure what the numbers are in Philly or Chicago, but I doubt that the median home price is 4.5 times larger than the median household income. Needless to say, a married couple consisting of a firefighter and a young teacher will not be living in the District of Columbia. I think this may be a function of DC's small size and its own unique QOL issues, but at least Philly and Chicago are teritorially large enough to accommodate many different people with many different tastes and incomes. When you grow up in Philadelphia, you don't realize how big the city is, but it's pretty big. I'm sitll discovering new areas of the city.
I agree that most of our middle class neighborhoods are concentrated in the NW. But would you consider East Oak Lane to be middle class? It's more like working middle-class, but I think it can get kinda sketchy over there.
If I moved back to Philadelphia to raise a family, I'm not quite sure where I'd go. West Philly is out of the question. I have nothing but love for West Philly, but it just seems like I'd be moving backwards: Mount Airy/G-Town, DC, then WP. No, sir. It seems that people from West Philly just move to a better section of West Philly (Cobbs Creek to Wynnefield; Mantua to Overbrook) and people from G-Town and N. Philly move to Mount Airy. Maybe not. I dunno.
Solibs,
I think the QOL issues are the biggest problems. Most of the city doesn't look good. When I bring friends to Philadelphia, I usually take 676 to the Schuykill, come up behind the Museum so they can see boathouse row, and then take Lincoln Drive. Sometimes I'll even cruise down Kelly Drive first and then whip back around just to really show off my town. If we just stick to the Northwest, they leave feeling like Philadelphia is this neglected treasure and that people are crazy for not living there. Now, on the other hand, if we take the 95 route into the city and swing past Max's on Erie and Germantown first...ya know.
In the DC area, I think the median income for a household is about $90K, but yet the median home price is about $400K.
DC or the DC area? There's a big difference between most cities and their suburbs.
I agree that most of our middle class neighborhoods are concentrated in the NW. But would you consider East Oak Lane to be middle class? It's more like working middle-class, but I think it can get kinda sketchy over there.
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It seems that people from West Philly just move to a better section of West Philly (Cobbs Creek to Wynnefield; Mantua to Overbrook) and people from G-Town and N. Philly move to Mount Airy. Maybe not. I dunno.
I would say not. I'm much rather live at 46th & Hazel than out in Overbrook. It's nicer, the school is better, there is more going on, it's more convenient and it's a heck of a lot closer to CC.
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Most of the city doesn't look good. When I bring friends to Philadelphia, I usually take 676 to the Schuykill, come up behind the Museum so they can see boathouse row, and then take Lincoln Drive.
Well, first, it isn't most of the city. If you wanted to say 40% or even half then i'd be inclined to agree with you. But I can do the same thing coming into DC. I can roll down New York Ave. or take 295 through Anacostia and my passengers thing DC is a dump except for the tourist areas.
Ever drive up the NJ Turnpike to NYC or come south on 95 through the Bronx? Take I-90 from Indiana into Chicago? Take I-26 into Charleston?
Lots of cities look like dumps when you take the right approach.
I understand what you are saying, but shouldn't you just be able to determine DC's affordability by looking at the median income for a family, and then seeing if that income would allow a family to purchase a home. In the DC area, I think the median income for a household is about $90K, but yet the median home price is about $400K. I'm not sure what the numbers are in Philly or Chicago, but I doubt that the median home price is 4.5 times larger than the median household income. Needless to say, a married couple consisting of a firefighter and a young teacher will not be living in the District of Columbia. I think this may be a function of DC's small size and its own unique QOL issues, but at least Philly and Chicago are teritorially large enough to accommodate many different people with many different tastes and incomes.
You're actually reinforcing my point: in both DC and SF, the middle-class appears to me to be rather small; most likely that $90K couple is living in a reasonably nice apt or possibly a condo. That leaves mostly a bunch of "haves" and "have-not". We also agree that Philly and Chicago are more economically diverse, which can have its benefits and challenges.
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I agree that most of our middle class neighborhoods are concentrated in the NW. But would you consider East Oak Lane to be middle class? It's more like working middle-class, but I think it can get kinda sketchy over there.
When I think of East Oak Lane, I think of the area that borders Cheltenham Township; in fact, if I didn't pay attention to the street sign in that stretch, I'd think I was back in the burbs. But I see what you're saying about the area closer to Olney.
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If I moved back to Philadelphia to raise a family, I'm not quite sure where I'd go. West Philly is out of the question. I have nothing but love for West Philly, but it just seems like I'd be moving backwards: Mount Airy/G-Town, DC, then WP. No, sir. It seems that people from West Philly just move to a better section of West Philly (Cobbs Creek to Wynnefield; Mantua to Overbrook) and people from G-Town and N. Philly move to Mount Airy. Maybe not. I dunno.
Well I can see how from your personal experience, you'd feel like you'd be breaking even at best by moving to West Philly. But you do point out something that I missed: West Philly neighborhoods that have relatively stable, primarily African-American middle class residents.
Do you think Philadelphia is more of a middle class city than, say, Boston, Chicago, DC, or San Francisco?
How many "middle class" neighborhoods are there in the city and what are they?
If you were married and had to choose a neighborhood on a joint income of $90K, do you think you could live in Philadelphia, send your children to a quality school, and live in a decent house?
Finally, what are the city's biggest obstacles to retaining and attracting middle class families (schools being an obvious one, but even parochial schools seem cheap in Philly)?
A few things since I know every city mentioned very well and have lived in most of them, but especially about Chicago. Are you considering making a move to these cities?
DC has been mentioned, is at a minimum half the size of Philly, which does make a difference, but even then, there are options for those making $90k a year, and not even bad ones. If you talk to people on this forum, I know it must seem like NW is the only section of DC that exists, but there are actually other sections to DC and they are nice and livable but it sounds like maybe you live there now and know this? Not sure. I know for a fact you can get a nice 3 bdr, 2ba for $250k in NE section of DC, a friend just bought one last month. But its not the hip area, so its not talked about as much.
I would actually say that Boston in some ways is worse than DC in terms of living on a middle class salary, both being better than SF. I'd prefer to buy a $250k house in DC than Boston, how about I say that. Size is a big factor here since SF, Boston, and DC are all much smaller than Philly or Chicago.
I'd say Chicago has more good middle class options than Philly but the city was planned out to be that way much more. But, if you were to narrow Chicago down to the size of DC and basically confine it to the area within the Loop, up to Lincoln Square and Uptown, and taking into account Lincoln Park, Lakeview, River West, River North, Wicker Park and then South Loop and Hyde Park to the south, you'd find it almost as challenging to live in those areas on a middle class budget as you do living in DC. Size matters here. There's more outer neighborhoods still within the city limits that are options in Chicago and Philly that are more focused on residential and more reasonably priced.
How many middle class neighborhoods in Chicago? I have no idea, a lot. There's also several that are not affordable to a regular middle class family. If you want to buy a house, not a condo, you have to move further out from the Loop in some cases. Chicago is more expensive in the more trendy areas in many ways than Philly is. Even options further out I would say are a bit more sometimes than say buying in Mount Airy. If you have certain criteria, or know an area you like in Philly or DC, then maybe I can give you a Chicago example thinking about if its possible to live there and buy there. The options are too many to list, and I'd be making an assumption of what you could spend on a house.
I'd definitely say schools are the biggest challenge to maintaining middle class in the city. I don't think people stay up at night thinking about trash on the street even if they do worry about how the city looks, but I do think they lose sleep on getting their kids into good schools. Its a motivating factor in moving for many families. That and crime and keeping it down. But again, so many times that's about the kids, keeping them safe.
Schools are just different in Chicago than in Philly. Many of my friends from Chicago look down on people from the suburbs, like in a "why live there?" fashion, they assumed schooling in Chicago is comparable to schools in other cities, so they didn't see that there was a need to leave the city like that. In Philly, its sort of like, "oh yeah, of course, for the schools, I get it, I understand not wanting to chance getting into Central or paying for private school." Its not the same, its better in Chicago and through the state's efforts. They have magnet schools that are the best of the best. People beg, borrow, and steal to get their kids into them. They have much better Catholic schools, and interestingly enough, as many people as I know who went to Chicago Catholic schools, very few of them are Catholic (and trust me I ask, it became something I noticed, so I took to asking when I found out where they went to HS). Much different in Philly. I hate the Chicago superintendent who came to Philly with a passion, but its the reason why he was brought here, to try to model the Chicago system, which has been somewhat successful, if a bit confusing and convoluted, in Philly. But that's not to say Chicago schools are great all around, but there doesn't seem to be the same preoccupation in Chicago when your kids are getting near school age to leave the city and find a nice suburb with a good school district, its there, just not to the same degree. They are aware of the city options and know they can work through them, even if all their kids aren't likely to get into Whitney Young and Lincoln Park.
If you asked me where I would live between Chicago, Philly, and DC on a middle class budget I'd say Chicago, DC, then Philly, but if you asked me where I would live on $200k a year, I'd likely say Chicago, DC, then Philly. I prefer those two to Philly in large part. And I prefer SF to all of them.
Based on what you said, I do think Chicago is a good option for you, but I say that hesitantly. Would you not want to live in area that looks like Mount Airy in Philly? Are you looking to live in something that looks and feels like NW section of DC for instance, but on a middle class budget? If so, I don't know that any of these cities works great for that.
Last edited by JasmineFlower; 07-19-2010 at 05:07 PM..
I'm actually from Germantown/Mt. Airy, I went to school in Boston, and now live in DC.
I didn't know that about Chicago schools. I have many good friends that went to Whitney Young, but I did not know that the school system offered many choices beyond the few magnet schools I'm aware of.
I created this thread to determine how "middle class friendly" the city of Philadelphia really is. In DC, I just don't think it's possible to raise a family on a middle class budget. It's okay when you have young children, but once they reach school age, your options are very limited. You have to drop a good bit of cash to live in a neighborhood zoned for Wilson and Deal (or live in a bad area that's zoned for those schools), hope they can test into Banneker, or send them to Walls or Ellington (which have small enrollments). Then, unlike Philadelphia, the parochial school option is not a viable one. It is difficult to find a quality private school here that has tuition under $20K per year. The best option seems to be Virginia or Montgomery County, but many of those areas are more expensive than the District.
I think there may be even more pressure here to leave the city once your kids hit school age than there is in Philly.
I didn't know that about Chicago schools. I have many good friends that went to Whitney Young, but I did not know that the school system offered many choices beyond the few magnet schools I'm aware of.
I think there may be even more pressure here to leave the city once your kids hit school age than there is in Philly.
I completely agree that DC schools are a serious problem with living in the district and there is pressure to get them into the good schools or move out of the district. And then in PG County, where housing is priced a bit better than the other counties, you have to be very selective and pick the right schools because there are problems in some of them. Sadly, I do think DC is worse than Philly in many ways. In Philly, while I do think the parochial schools are an option, I don't think they are as good as they should be, and not as optimal an alternative as they once were. The good parochial schools that I know of these days cost almost as much as regular private schools.
In Chicago, they do a few different things, they have regular magnet schools (Whitney Young is usually considered the best but many other great ones like Lane Tech), they have neighborhood schools, and then they have ones like Lincoln Park, a neighborhood school with great academics and a sought after honors program that allows admission from other areas. Its great that at least somewhere in the city, if you live in that area, you get to have your kids to go to one of the best schools in the city. And its not the only one, Kenwood is another example. So, Kenwood, this is a good example of a place where with a $90k household income, you could afford to buy a nice home and not worry about where your kids would have to attend school. Another option on the south side, but further south, is in the Beverly area, very nice area, very nice homes, and Morgan Park is a nearby magnet school in this area. If you aren't familiar with Kenwood, it is just north of Hyde Park. And then on top of that there are the parochial schools, which are some of the best schools in the city, which is something I rarely hear about parochial schools in Philly these days.
I definitely think Chicago has many options for reasonable housing, think the schooling is better structured there, and its also a fairly clean city, especially for its size, that cares about its upkeep. So, for a middle class family living on $90k a year, I think its a great option. As long as you don't expect to live in Georgetown like neighborhood in a greystone/brownstone that's walking distance from Michigan Ave on that household income, I think you would fair well on that in Chicago.
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